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Wenger/arsenal
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Wenger/arsenal Reply with quote

Although his trophy record isn't as great as their supporters might have liked, to keep a team in the top four of the PL for 2 decades is a great achievement.

I've remained undecided about his style of management, whether it was good or whether he got a bit lucky with the team he inherited just findinf the missing pieces of the jigsaw? I still don't think I'd ever have wanted him, even in his prime, in charge of United.

Although I'm sure most arsenal supporters will be happy he is going, I have a feeling the team will sink like a stone when he's gone.

Thoughts?
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 years in the top 4 is an incredible achievement.

They generally have played nice free flowing football.

He did seem reluctant to buy a team which probably hurt them.


They will go downhill.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have gone downhill from 2004 onwards and he has to take a huge amount of responsibility for that. He got lucky in 1998, we were well ahead but losing Keane was a huge miss for us, much like losing Cantona in 1995.

His legacy is that he created a great team in 2003, a mix of brutishness and beauty with some great players. To go 49 unbeaten was an incredible achievement. Since then he’s taken them backwards as a serious title contender, he removed the brutishness and never replaced it. I think his ego got in the way and he has outlasted his usefulness by at least 5 years.

Good luck to him, we had a great rivalry with them but I can’t stand Arsenal, their fans or the media hyperbole that constantly surrounds them.
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
They have gone downhill from 2004 onwards and he has to take a huge amount of responsibility for that. He got lucky in 1998, we were well ahead but losing Keane was a huge miss for us, much like losing Cantona in 1995.

His legacy is that he created a great team in 2003, a mix of brutishness and beauty with some great players. To go 49 unbeaten was an incredible achievement. Since then he’s taken them backwards as a serious title contender, he removed the brutishness and never replaced it. I think his ego got in the way and he has outlasted his usefulness by at least 5 years.

Good luck to him, we had a great rivalry with them but I can’t stand Arsenal, their fans or the media hyperbole that constantly surrounds them.


Agree with a lot of that.

Wenger had a great team when he’d combined their existing English defence with some snazzy foreign signings. But when that back four (and Seaman) started to retire he never replaced em, and on top of that stopped buying hard-hitting players like Vieira and Petit and instead kept going with soft-arse fancy dans like Reyes. Remember when Arsenal finished almost every game with 10 men but were fucking good? Look at what they’ve become.

I know a lot of Arsenal supporters and I’m with them on this: Wenger’s resignation has come at least three years too late, his stubbornness over the last decade has destroyed his reputation and could have ramifications for the club for years to come. Part of me hopes they don’t get smart and give someone like Luis Enrique a shitload to spend in the summer or we’re gonna have another team to worry about, but realistically the overhaul that team needs will take two years at the very least.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed


You should receive an instant ban for that, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

Where is Kato when you need him / her / it.
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Diablo



Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed


Are you sure that's a faacht?
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Kato



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
john smith wrote:
the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed


You should receive an instant ban for that, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

Where is Kato when you need him / her / it.


Listen up Chubster. People have never been banned on here just for expressing opinions, even controversial ones. Turbo posting of shite and generally acting the cunt, now that's a different matter.

Although I agree that Rafa is a fat over-rated prick. But that's just my opinion, like.
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68



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kato wrote:
Chubby wrote:
john smith wrote:
the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed


You should receive an instant ban for that, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

Where is Kato when you need him / her / it.


Listen up Chubster. People have never been banned on here just for expressing opinions, even controversial ones. Turbo posting of shite and generally acting the cunt, now that's a different matter.

Although I agree that Rafa is a fat over-rated prick. But that's just my opinion, like.


Nic is a cunt; does this count?
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Kato



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 601

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

68 wrote:
Kato wrote:
Chubby wrote:
john smith wrote:
the bookies are all over
Brenda Rodgers
David Moyes
Rafa Benitez



i hope it's either of the first two, as i actually believe Rafa is a very good manager Embarassed


You should receive an instant ban for that, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

Where is Kato when you need him / her / it.


Listen up Chubster. People have never been banned on here just for expressing opinions, even controversial ones. Turbo posting of shite and generally acting the cunt, now that's a different matter.

Although I agree that Rafa is a fat over-rated prick. But that's just my opinion, like.


Nic is a cunt; does this count?


FFS, Nic is here to be abused. Fill your boots.
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tafkaf



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nic’s an awful wanker. I suspect he was in the stands eating his snot on Sky the other week.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe him to be a very good, efficient and competent manager.

I don't think he's awesome, amazing, world class etc.

I think the real genius was in David Dein getting him to come to Arsenal when Wenger had fantastic contacts and knowledge of French football just prior to French football exploding into a world beating force.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the world cup despite the side containing Cantona, Ginola, Blanc, Djorkaeff etc. Arsene arrived in October 1996 and by July 1998 France were head and shoulders the best team in the world.

Wenger inherited a great 'keeper and back four, he also inherited the Wright & Bergkamp partnership up front, he added some steel / flair to their midfield and signed a lot of French/African with French heritage players, mostly on the cheap later selling them for a huge profits.

Once these profits had been spunked away on their new ground, the English back four hung up their boots and other clubs cottoned on and realised the treasure to be had at Clairefontaine they became less successful, titles dried up and his reputation dwindled, he's never really cracked European football.

London based media will be crying for the next 2 years, Wenger was their knight in shining armour, he stopped them having to drive up and down the M6 to speak to SAF, hence they claimed him to be the greatest thing since Cats eyes sliced bread and broke the sound barrier, when they landed on the moon.

I wish him well and I hope Brenda gets the job, managing Celtic papers many cracks.
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Red Snow



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One or two interesting points here - but you're almost entirely wrong.


...the real genius was in David Dein getting him to come to Arsenal when Wenger had fantastic contacts and knowledge of French football just prior to French football exploding into a world beating force".

Not quite sure what you mean here by the "real genius" - Dein had no idea French football would rise and I don't think there's any reason to think it a "world beating force" despite the 98 Cup, see below.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the world cup despite the side containing Cantona, Ginola, Blanc, Djorkaeff etc. Arsene arrived in October 1996 and by July 1998 France were head and shoulders the best team in the world.

"Head and shoulders" is an enormous exaggeration. There were better teams that World Cup - Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands and arguably Croatia. That French team was famously low on goalscorers to the point of having to be bailed out by a double by Lillian Thuram - a defender who, it was pointed out by his teammates, never even scored in training - against Croatia, and scraped through on penalties against Italy - as, admittedly, did Brazil, the other finalists. For their own goals, they were over-reliant on a very young and raw Thierry Henry who netted 3 (see below).

In the final, the controversy around Ronaldo is still well known to have played a major part - had that not happened, the most likely result would have been what everyone expected before the game - a Brazilian win. Or had Croatia, Netherlands and Argentina not had their spots of bad luck (Croatia, see Thuram above; Netherlands,penalties against Brazil; Argentina a sending off for Ortega that was well deserved, despite an exaggeration by our beloved Van der Sar) - this would be a different narrative.

To be clear, I'm not saying France '98 was a bad team - they had a incredibly strong midfield, a good defence but nothing up front. They got luckier than most teams I can think of who have got that far, never mind winners. This is definitely not "head and shoulders the best team in the world". And if you doubt that teams get so lucky as to go on to win a major cup competition, I point you to the scum, 2005.

Wenger inherited a great 'keeper and back four, he also inherited the Wright & Bergkamp partnership up front, he added some steel / flair to their midfield and signed a lot of French/African with French heritage players, mostly on the cheap later selling them for a huge profits.

All true. But you're giving a very incomplete picture. See below.

Once these profits had been spunked away on their new ground, the English back four hung up their boots and other clubs cottoned on and realised the treasure to be had at Clairefontaine they became less successful, titles dried up and his reputation dwindled, he's never really cracked European football.

Almost entirely nonsense, I'm afraid (with the exception of the point about European football). The signings of Anelka, Viera, Petit, Overmars were very very shrewd - despite Anelka's problems - but he also later signed players such as Ljunberg, Henry and Pires. "Less succesful"? Are you serious? he built a formidable team that went unbeaten for an entire season. Without your "English back four" who had, as you say, "hung up their boots" to be replaced by Campbell, Cole, toure et al.

And, finally, Henry. Thierry Henry was a wonderkid in France when he was at Monaco. You will no doubt remember our gutting exit against them in '98 - though we were Keane-less and Giggs-less and at our lowest ebb that season. Despite Monaco's reaching the semis, the French league still wasn't much cop. Demonstrated by the move of a one time Young French footballer of the year, Thierry Henry, to the titans Juventus. To say he bombed against some decent (if dull) defences of Serie A, is an understatement.

Wenger still though he was a good signing, paidwhat was then quite a lot of money for a near-forgotten pace merchant and, controversially, turned him into a striker. The rest is history.

London based media will be crying for the next 2 years, Wenger was their knight in shining armour, he stopped them having to drive up and down the M6 to speak to SAF, hence they claimed him to be the greatest thing since Cats eyes sliced bread and broke the sound barrier, when they landed on the moon.

I quite literally have got no idea what this sentence means. I don't recall any drop in coverage of us or SAF then. If the point you're making is that the ABU nation loved him simply because he was a rival to us for a few years - that's obviously true, but I can think of better ways to make your point.

My 20p: a great manager who, as Gary Neville said, made us change the way we played. But his strengths were also his weaknesses: he stuck too rigidly to a playing style that, unless you're Barcelona, did fuck all and a transfer policy so self-righteous it would inevitably fuck the team up.

I wish him well and I hope Brenda gets the job, managing Celtic papers many cracks.

I also wish him well and I wouldn't wish Brenda on anyone - but I pray they get him. It would be the greatest fucking karma for all those years spent amongst the cunts at school. Please, God.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple of interesting points in your critique RS.

1st a lot of it is my opinion, I can't possibly be wrong because it's an opinion.

2nd, I disagree regarding Dein, I think he was very shrewd and did in deed have a good idea that the French national academy was producing a crop of unbelievable talent, hence he went with a manger few had heard specifically because that manager knew the French market. If you think winning the world cup 3-1 again Brazil and then the UEFA European championship at the same time doesn't make you easily the best team on the planet then I would question your own opinion.

3rd If you really believe that Wenger turned Henry into a striker then every word you've written is pretty pointless, Henry had already played as a central striker for Monaco AND France before he went to Juve' it was only Juve' that saw him as a winger, this is yet again more London media bollocks. Henry was a striker out and out Wenger just knew that Juve were not getting the best out of him.

Thanks for caring.
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Red Snow



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple of interesting points in your critique RS.

Appreciate your response.

1st a lot of it is my opinion, I can't possibly be wrong because it's an opinion.

Agree to disagree.

2nd, I disagree regarding Dein, I think he was very shrewd and did in deed have a good idea that the French national academy was producing a crop of unbelievable talent, hence he went with a manger few had heard specifically because that manager knew the French market. If you think winning the world cup 3-1 again Brazil and then the UEFA European championship at the same time doesn't make you easily the best team on the planet then I would question your own opinion.

Admittedly, France were much better in 2000 than in 1998 - and I stand by everything I have said about the 98 World Cup, none of which you have refuted. When you said " just prior to French football exploding into a world beating force", I had assumed you meant the World Cup but I will talk about the European Championships now. One of the reasons France had improved was their top scorer Henry, who had just moved to Arsenal and scored 26 goals that season as a striker. Also, from my memory, Holland were the better team that European Championship. And remember, France looked to be dead against Italy in the final and instead got a last minute goal and then a golden goal. Nothing wrong with that, we scored plenty of last minute winners, but this doesn't speak for them being "easily the best team on the planet".

Again, I am not saying France was a bad team and they were definitely improved in 2000. But this is still, as I said in my last post and above, a far cry from your "easily the best team on the planet". Admittedly, some of this stems from my irritation that that Dutch team didn't win a major trophy.

On Dein, perhaps he did. I have no idea. It certainly is an odd move to get a guy from the Japanese league to manage an English team - though he is French and did manage Monaco. Perhaps you're right. But I haven't seen any evidence for it - and I also made the point in relation to your "real genius" comment. I can't see how calling Dein the "real genius" behind Arsenal's successes, presumably above Wenger, is right.

3rd If you really believe that Wenger turned Henry into a striker then every word you've written is pretty pointless, Henry had already played as a central striker for Monaco AND France before he went to Juve' it was only Juve' that saw him as a winger, this is yet again more London media bollocks. Henry was a striker out and out Wenger just knew that Juve were not getting the best out of him.

My "every word" is pretty pointless? How? Regardless, I find your revisionism of Henry to be very strange. I base dmy last post on memory. Based on your response I have used google and wikipedia to test my memory, and every resource I have found confirms that Henry was a winger before he came to Arsenal. Perhaps there was an errant match or three where he played central striker - but he was primarily winger even under Wenger at Monaco. And I'm not sure why a statement of fact is "London media bollocks" - is Wikipedia owned/dominated by the London media?

Thanks for caring.

Thanks for a debate - even if you're almost entirely wrong. Razz Laughing
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