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Martial
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 658

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Martial Reply with quote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44477227

His agent stating that Martial wants to leave. I'm not surprised in the slightest and will be gutted if he leaves as he the only player in the squad that tries to and is capable of beating his man.
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would rather see Jose go. He's a talented lad but Jose has coached it out of him IMO.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Martial but he's a 9 being played as an 11, we have a 9 in Lukaku. Only place Martial can get a consistent start would be at 11, which he clearly doesn't seem to relish and who can blame him?

Whilst I don't want Martial to leave, we're constantly trying to place square pegs in round holes.

I wouldn't want Martial to start ahead of Lukaku, hard to blame Jose for feeling the same way. Jose leaving would not change the fact that Martial is not as good a number 9 as Lukaku and the next manager would have exactly the same issue.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
I love Martial but he's a 9 being played as an 11, we have a 9 in Lukaku. Only place Martial can get a consistent start would be at 11, which he clearly doesn't seem to relish and who can blame him?

Whilst I don't want Martial to leave, we're constantly trying to place square pegs in round holes.

I wouldn't want Martial to start ahead of Lukaku, hard to blame Jose for feeling the same way. Jose leaving would not change the fact that Martial is not as good a number 9 as Lukaku and the next manager would have exactly the same issue.


Agree entirely with that except he has the talent to be another Thierry Henry but not, from what I've seen, the the temperament. There has always been something diffident about him, like a kid who never had to work too hard at it so why should he start now.

If you have that kind of talent you need also the Cristiano work ethic to realise your full potential. We have seen for instance Rooney fail to reach that when he had the undoubted talent - but he gave it a damn good shot for a few years. Anthony has always blown hot and cold. Yes, he may learn with time but I am not sure we (any more than Jose) can wait.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i genuinely believe that Martial is as good a potential player as we have seen for many many years.

if he leaves i hope i am wrong .

i would not be surprised one little bit , if he went elsewhere and became a world class player.

it won't be the first time jose has been on watch when a superstar has been allowed to leave .....

Rolling Eyes

i wish Tony M well if he does leave .
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1999



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be sorry to see him leave but I really don't see him having much of a future here. He doesn't look happy playing as a left winger, but it's probably the only position available for him, maybe he doesn't see it the same way (his body language certainly suggests as such).
I appreciate he runs at defenders, but in fairness he rarely beats them, maybe he became a bit predictable?

Debut goal v the vermin and FA Cup semi goal v Everton will stay long in the memory.

Good luck to the lad.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
i genuinely believe that Martial is as good a potential player as we have seen for many many years.

if he leaves i hope i am wrong .

i would not be surprised one little bit , if he went elsewhere and became a world class player.

it won't be the first time jose has been on watch when a superstar has been allowed to leave .....

Rolling Eyes

i wish Tony M well if he does leave .


Mo Salah or KDB anyone?

Two players Jose couldn't get the best out of. Tony will be the same sadly. I'd rather keep him and get rid of Sanchez
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
john smith wrote:
i genuinely believe that Martial is as good a potential player as we have seen for many many years.

if he leaves i hope i am wrong .

i would not be surprised one little bit , if he went elsewhere and became a world class player.

it won't be the first time jose has been on watch when a superstar has been allowed to leave .....

Rolling Eyes

i wish Tony M well if he does leave .


Mo Salah or KDB anyone?

Two players Jose couldn't get the best out of. Tony will be the same sadly. I'd rather keep him and get rid of Sanchez


This.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
I'd rather keep him and get rid of Sanchez


Hard to disagree with this, a player we didn’t need that has yet to have a great game for us.
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Zoolander wrote:
I'd rather keep him and get rid of Sanchez


Hard to disagree with this, a player we didn’t need that has yet to have a great game for us.
Also agree.

I might be scrapping the barrel a little bit, but another young winger/attacking player, Depay, was sold by Jose and is doing pretty well now it seems. Rashford, Martial, Depay (up for debate), Sanchez, Salad, KDB.. all either not fancied or failed under Jose's management... and you could also argue that Hazard experienced a drop in form under Jose... could it really be coincidence?
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Chubby



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depay simply wasn’t good enough, pulling up trees in the top French League is no better than being a good Division 2 standard, imho. Plus he gave it the big I AM before he’d done anything for us, too big for his boots and very much a case of crap style over very little substance.
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john smith



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Jose -KDB- Salad (and you could throw in Lukaku as Jose sold him too )thing has caused me a few debates,

i argued that Jose sold all three and the only one he bought back was Lukaku.
.

there is some debate as to if Jose was actually responsible for the sales, he in person argued that he had left Chelsea i think when Salah was sold- although it was later argued that he had sanctioned the sale prior to leaving ??

the above may be factually in accurate , but this jist does seem to be,

you don't have a long period to prove yourself to jose , unless-

1) he likes you - eg fellaini - then he is happy to champion your cause no matter what you do, or how ineffective you actually appear as a top level footballer

2) he has bought you - eg pogba-sanchez etc - then he is happy to push out other players (usually younger ones as he seems to bully young players) he also will back you whatever , remember a game last season when pogba was shite (i know there was many but one in particular ) and Jose came out glowing about how he was MOTM and world class ....


he throws in theodd curve ball , like keeping mata just to throw people off his scent , but overall his MO has never changed.


i know that once again my post has drifted onto a jose attack, but i am pissed off that he prepared to let a 22 year old player with oodles of class there to be tapped into leave, just so he can fit in players he has bought .


ps- i like sanchez, but wenger used him a better and got a lot more out of him Wink
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Depay simply wasn’t good enough, pulling up trees in the top French League is no better than being a good Division 2 standard, imho. Plus he gave it the big I AM before he’d done anything for us, too big for his boots and very much a case of crap style over very little substance.


I agree the point about his attitude/the "big I am" issue. But being a young player this is always a possibility. It's a common thing these days and is the downfall of many young players.

Your comment on the French league is a fair one. However when you compare goals/assists stats he's on par with Neymar. Hardly a disaster.

I'm not suggesting we were wrong to sell him, but I do think under a different manager we would have seen far more from him. If we were ever to re-sign him under a different manager I'd be happy to let him have another chance.

The point I'm trying to make is that Jose's football doesn't appear to work for players that like to run with the ball and beat their man.
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Jackl



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't argue with the idea I'd like Martial to stay but i can't buy the idea it's all the manager's fault. The player has to wise up too.

Jose didn't make Depay useless either. He elected to become useless under the manager who bought him and saw him as a key component of his national team. He was beyond redemption here and doing it at Lyons and at United is a mentality thing.

Tony M has the mentality to get over that but I suspect he thinks he doesn't need to be taught. Wherever he goes he has to overcome that.

I don't think either we can blame Jose for Mo and KDB. He took them to Chelsea and it was too early for them to operate on that stage. They needed an intermediate step.

It's natural for a manager to prefer his own signings but Jose is in too much of a hurry up at times. He knows it's a results environment. I suspect the player who defines him more than most is in my view greater than all these - Arjen Robben. When he was fit for Chelsea he was unplayable but he had bad injury problems and Jose ran out of patience. His miss in the pen shoot out against the Dippers in the CL semi sealed his fate, I think, and in the 2007 CF he was a substituted substitute. Jose lacks the patience because he has to get results. It doesn't make it right but it's understandable.

I cannot put hand on heart and say Tony M was much better under LVG. He hasn't lacked opportunities.

As for Jose, no, he's far from perfect viewed against the tapestry of the two knights, albeit he compares favourably with the rest. The point remains: who was available when we got him who was guaranteed to be better? And who is now?

Hey, what do I know? If I want a political opinion, I ask a taxi driver. They know how to run the world. Football? They probably know that too.
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Zoolander



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course you are right in some respects that the player could have done more. I would however say that some players are the type to go out there and prove a point, grasp a slim chance but many players are not.

One of the flaws that appears to be in Jose's style is that you either bend to his iron will or you are out. He removes all traces of individuality, it's akin to being assimilated by the Borg.

We can't be silly and suggest that Jose is not a very effective manager that has won a huge amount of trophies in many countries, but we can question the way he goes about it, if that is appropriate in these modern times where player power is absolute and if it's the way we'd want to see our team play/win.

Anyone that doesn't question his ability to get the best out of Martial & Rashford is just hiding away from the truth. Jose was very vocal about the players Utd sold before he arrived, that he would never have sold, Hernandez, Welbeck, ADM etc are we really to believe that he would have gotten more out of these players than the managers who sold them did yet is unable to get more out of Rashford, Martial and for that matter Pogba?

I think Martial needs to be loved, some fans may criticise that and that's their right to do so but for me everyone is different and the true genius of management is to understand that and treat each player accordingly. I just feel Jose doesn't/can't do that, he is so firmly entrenched in the "My way or highway" mentality that we could end up losing several very, very promising players that will come back to haunt us.
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