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United V City the Cold War
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: United V City the Cold War Reply with quote

Terrific article on the BBC website about the escalating battles to recruit the very best youngsters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/longform_manchester_cold_war

Interesting to see how many Utd players have their kids in the City set up. I think the education deal that City are offering is a fabulous gesture (They pay £3k per term for private education to any academy kids right up until GCSE's even if the kid drops out of the academy) and will of course win over any parents.

interesting that most of those being interviewed believe City are now well ahead in the youth team set up but still seem to fail to bring those kids into the 1st team.
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mentioned this a while ago, last season I think, after an article about United's academy failing. I got told I was talking tosh and that for all the money city pumped into their academy they had fuck all to show for it. When professional footballers are sending their kids to rival clubs you have a serious problem, imo
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shifty



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

way back in the dark days of football being a game for the working classes city always had the better set up and structure for youngsters, their main net casters were under the guise of whitehill lads team, (Nic wil correct me if I've got the name wrong) kids progressed from there into the city youth set up, whitehill had connections at practically all schools and youth clubs in manchester and surrounding areas (before the days of greater manchester) United seemed to rely more on local area schools and clubs with a good scouting system away from manchester, scotland, ireland etc. Today with young kids its more about the overall package a club can offer than just the football, which isnt a bad thing, city seemed to have got the right mix, the more clubs with good academy set ups the better regardless who they are
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Bondurant



Joined: 24 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent article.

Though, to be honest, it makes me quite happy that neither of my two are good enough to be put through the rigmarole of the academies. Sounds soul destroying.
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Nicolae



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:44 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

It's a debate I have on a semi-regular basis with bitter tached-up Magoo mates.

Academies at say Coventry or Bristol City or even Southampton / Everton are one thing, but the academies at City / Utd /Chelsea are entirely another.

The best and brightest prospects can feasibly get into the first teams at the former clubs mentioned, on a regular basis, starting games and in the league and build up 40/50/60 starts

At the latter clubs this has become almost impossible now. The odd LC game, a dead rubber in Europe or 10 mins of a PL match is about as much as they can reasonably be given because the standard is so high and the oressure to win EVERY game so great

United have been very successful over the past 20 years at dripping them in, giving them exposure then selling them on for decent money in the hope that one or two a decade are actually good enough to break through regularly

I've seen the academy set up at Wastelands and it is superb, they get everything, even a good education, but that won't make them better players and I'd be amazed if we get ONE player coming through it who will go on to play 100+ times for the first team

Look at Iheanacho now, he's been touted for a good few years, made the break through, scored the goals (I think he may actually have the best goals to mins ratio in the country) but I still can't see him making it with us.
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tafkaf



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be nicer of City's owners not to confiscate the passports of poverty stricken migrant electricians who they use as slave labour on their latest vanity Consistent failure dressed up as a long term strategic vision instead of offering free education to kids they may make money out of.

Could just be me though.
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john smith



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps i'm being overly cynical, but I wonder in a business sense how these academy's fair?

by the time a youth has been trained, educated and brought though whomevers system, what the total costs are per head.

I would guess that the costs are easily covered, by the total monies brought in by selling or loaning these youths once they are ready.

what you have is a production line , for a product , it's simply a business .
the clubs know that , as nic correctly says, they probably may only find one player a year, or none even... but the cost of searching is covered by the money they recoup.
if you look at Rashford UTD must have saved about £10 million by not having to buy him, if he doesn't make it they sell him to WBA for example, and get about £6 million, that will fund the youth set up for a while.

it's not exectly human trafficking is it, the players that make it to the top become superstars
the ones that make it , but aren't as good , may forge a career in the game at lower level.
and some will drop out and end up at Burger King.

is any of that wrong ?

the scholes, nevilles, butt, bex, giggs team must have actually saved/ made utd about £100 million, that'll send a lad or 2 through the academy .
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Chubby



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The academies are designed to breakeven most years, some years turning a profit by the club selling on a product of their academy (and let's not kid ourselves, they are products), every now and again a youngster makes the first team. How to judge an academy is therefore multi-faceted.

At u10 level only 0.02% of the boys in any academy will ever play football as a professional. It makes me sick to my stomach that ALL clubs hoover up the talent in the Junior leagues at this age and younger, only to discard them 1-2 seasons later, breaking a very young child's heart and potentially losing that boy from football forever.

It's great that proper education is being provided, but let's not kid ourselves, these kids are dumped unceremoniously when the clubs feel like it. Even at u10 level if the boy trains with the academy he cannot play for other teams, including his school team or the County.
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The academies are designed to breakeven most years, some years turning a profit by the club selling on a product of their academy (and let's not kid ourselves, they are products), every now and again a youngster makes the first team. How to judge an academy is therefore multi-faceted.

At u10 level only 0.02% of the boys in any academy will ever play football as a professional. It makes me sick to my stomach that ALL clubs hoover up the talent in the Junior leagues at this age and younger, only to discard them 1-2 seasons later, breaking a very young child's heart and potentially losing that boy from football forever.

It's great that proper education is being provided, but let's not kid ourselves, these kids are dumped unceremoniously when the clubs feel like it. Even at u10 level if the boy trains with the academy he cannot play for other teams, including his school team or the County.


Although it contradicts my previous post somewhat, many kids (parents) pick academies based on the facilities and size of the club, not the likely hood of them getting through it, parents chasing their kids dreams, if you like.

A lad I used to coach was playing at Brighton, they had really high hopes etc.... Chelsea came calling and off he went. Offered him the world. The reality, he was there a year and got dumped. The lad didn't play again. His confidence absolutely battered.

OK, he might also have got dumped by Brighton but, lets be honest, it's far easier to break through in a lower league and get the dream transfer, when your old enough to weigh up your options.
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dark-shade-of-red



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: United V City the Cold War Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
Terrific article on the BBC website about the escalating battles to recruit the very best youngsters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/longform_manchester_cold_war

Interesting to see how many Utd players have their kids in the City set up. I think the education deal that City are offering is a fabulous gesture (They pay £3k per term for private education to any academy kids right up until GCSE's even if the kid drops out of the academy) and will of course win over any parents.

interesting that most of those being interviewed believe City are now well ahead in the youth team set up but still seem to fail to bring those kids into the 1st team.



Always feel betrayed when former and current United players send their kids off to Ciddy academy. I understand the appeal of the free education, but are you telling me that Rooney (who's kid currently attends City) cannot afford a measly £3k? Andy Cole's (Sorry, Andrew Cole) kid attended City and of course, Kasper Schmeichel went as a wee boy. It must have been more than the appeal of free education to these millionaires.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
The academies are designed to breakeven most years, some years turning a profit by the club selling on a product of their academy (and let's not kid ourselves, they are products), every now and again a youngster makes the first team. How to judge an academy is therefore multi-faceted.

At u10 level only 0.02% of the boys in any academy will ever play football as a professional. It makes me sick to my stomach that ALL clubs hoover up the talent in the Junior leagues at this age and younger, only to discard them 1-2 seasons later, breaking a very young child's heart and potentially losing that boy from football forever.

It's great that proper education is being provided, but let's not kid ourselves, these kids are dumped unceremoniously when the clubs feel like it. Even at u10 level if the boy trains with the academy he cannot play for other teams, including his school team or the County.


Although it contradicts my previous post somewhat, many kids (parents) pick academies based on the facilities and size of the club, not the likely hood of them getting through it, parents chasing their kids dreams, if you like.

A lad I used to coach was playing at Brighton, they had really high hopes etc.... Chelsea came calling and off he went. Offered him the world. The reality, he was there a year and got dumped. The lad didn't play again. His confidence absolutely battered.

OK, he might also have got dumped by Brighton but, lets be honest, it's far easier to break through in a lower league and get the dream transfer, when your old enough to weigh up your options.


Most things in junior football exist to keep the parents happy. League tables and top scorer lists are limited value to most 9-10 yo boys, they lose a game of football and 20 minutes later they're on their Xbox of PS4 and have forgotten the result entirely - it's the parents that want to see their child's name in lights, it's the parents that cause the problems, it's the parents that have visions of their boy being the next Messi. The reality is and the statistics show their boy is unlikely to ever be paid to play football. More people have won the lottery in the UK than have played for Manchester United throughout it's history, I think we've had circa 900 first team players in our entire history, 4 chances to win the lottery every week, 52 week's a year, do the maths. Do any of use know anyone that has won the lottery?

Parents are the worst invention in youth football. Wink
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Bondurant



Joined: 24 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on Chubby.

The vast majority of parents I meet in the youth leagues are fine, but a few of them plus a number of the coaches are just bulging-temple-vein idiots that think that a nine year old scoring a goal is the most important thing that will happen in their entire week.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm sure we all know a parent who trots out the line
"my little son Tobias Kenley is a youth player at Manchester City "

it's not very often you hear someone say
"my kids having trials at Crawley "
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eyes again



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bondurant wrote:
Spot on Chubby.

The vast majority of parents I meet in the youth leagues are fine, but a few of them plus a number of the coaches are just bulging-temple-vein idiots that think that a nine year old scoring a goal is the most important thing that will happen in their entire week.



My youngest played in West Ham's academy, and has played around America meeting their best, and playing against their best. My youngest is no where near the best, but to see some parents think their kids will be the next Messi is quite amusing.
One bloke told me he never minded paying tens of thousands of $'s because one day his boy will play for Madrid or Barca. I just thought your kid is shite.
Another dad travels 4 to 8 hours driving to take their kid to a game of football every week, and pays tens of thousands of $'s and his kid is no better than mine, but thinks his kid will play in the English or Spanish league.


Are parents the worst nightmare, for most yes, in America they are far worse than in England. Some of them will re-mortgage their home, yea it is that bad.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
The academies are designed to breakeven most years, some years turning a profit by the club selling on a product of their academy (and let's not kid ourselves, they are products), every now and again a youngster makes the first team. How to judge an academy is therefore multi-faceted.

At u10 level only 0.02% of the boys in any academy will ever play football as a professional. It makes me sick to my stomach that ALL clubs hoover up the talent in the Junior leagues at this age and younger, only to discard them 1-2 seasons later, breaking a very young child's heart and potentially losing that boy from football forever.

It's great that proper education is being provided, but let's not kid ourselves, these kids are dumped unceremoniously when the clubs feel like it. Even at u10 level if the boy trains with the academy he cannot play for other teams, including his school team or the County.


Although it contradicts my previous post somewhat, many kids (parents) pick academies based on the facilities and size of the club, not the likely hood of them getting through it, parents chasing their kids dreams, if you like.

A lad I used to coach was playing at Brighton, they had really high hopes etc.... Chelsea came calling and off he went. Offered him the world. The reality, he was there a year and got dumped. The lad didn't play again. His confidence absolutely battered.

OK, he might also have got dumped by Brighton but, lets be honest, it's far easier to break through in a lower league and get the dream transfer, when your old enough to weigh up your options.


Most things in junior football exist to keep the parents happy. League tables and top scorer lists are limited value to most 9-10 yo boys, they lose a game of football and 20 minutes later they're on their Xbox of PS4 and have forgotten the result entirely - it's the parents that want to see their child's name in lights, it's the parents that cause the problems, it's the parents that have visions of their boy being the next Messi. The reality is and the statistics show their boy is unlikely to ever be paid to play football. More people have won the lottery in the UK than have played for Manchester United throughout it's history, I think we've had circa 900 first team players in our entire history, 4 chances to win the lottery every week, 52 week's a year, do the maths. Do any of use know anyone that has won the lottery?

Parents are the worst invention in youth football. Wink


Going off topic a bit, but I do think the removal of league tables, results etc in youth football is a bit much. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't stop parents and some coaches focusing only on results. It doesn't stop the touchline arguments and fights. It doesn't stop little Johnny getting picked on 'coz his team lose every week. What it does do, to a degree, is dilute the game and takes away a valuable life lesson. How to deal with success and defeat.

IMO kids need to be taught to compete. They need to be rewarded for success. And, when a team have performed well, be rewarded collectively to highlight the importance of working together. And when things don't go quite so well, the players have to learn to ask why and build on that lesson. It doesn't have to be a brutal lesson. Any half decent coach would be able to find that balance.

We live in an age where kids of 13+ (i believe this is when football becomes competitive now?) feel they only need to turn up and they get a participation medal. I turned up up school every week. That didnt give me good grades. If kids are not taught that success is earned, we will see a generation of kids who have an overwhelming sense of entitlement... some may argue we are seeing that already. Learning to compete is one of the most valuable lessons we could ever learn.
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