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United V City the Cold War
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Jarzinio



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 773
Location: Manchesterish

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: United V City the Cold War Reply with quote

dark-shade-of-red wrote:
Zoolander wrote:
Terrific article on the BBC website about the escalating battles to recruit the very best youngsters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/longform_manchester_cold_war

Interesting to see how many Utd players have their kids in the City set up. I think the education deal that City are offering is a fabulous gesture (They pay £3k per term for private education to any academy kids right up until GCSE's even if the kid drops out of the academy) and will of course win over any parents.

interesting that most of those being interviewed believe City are now well ahead in the youth team set up but still seem to fail to bring those kids into the 1st team.



Always feel betrayed when former and current United players send their kids off to Ciddy academy. I understand the appeal of the free education, but are you telling me that Rooney (who's kid currently attends City) cannot afford a measly £3k? Andy Cole's (Sorry, Andrew Cole) kid attended City and of course, Kasper Schmeichel went as a wee boy. It must have been more than the appeal of free education to these millionaires.


There is little doubt that our ex players could send them to any fee paying/private school in the country and they may well leave with excellent academic qualifications.
I feel if you send your kids to a school that they want to go to you are likely to get a more positive attitude from you child or children.
It could be that the kids had wanted to look at the Academy and have aspirations to be professional footballers.
The parents may feel that either, in truth, they would rather have a lawyer/doctor or other profession in mind for the said kids.
It may well be that the academic opportunities at the Wasteland and the standards of the teachers/tutors give them an equal chance and both the kids ambitions and their parents aspirations.
So as a parent if this scenario was offered to me I would probably send them to the Wastelands
As regards footballers getting regular first team football, I only plan on living another 50/60 years so I doubt I will see any
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good article agreed, but as it points out doesn't it all become a bit pointless. Thousands of kids go through the system one gets to the fringe of the first team, about to break through, and a big name, big money, proven foreigner comes into take his place.

It seems like a lot of time and effort with minimal productive output.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:

Going off topic a bit, but I do think the removal of league tables, results etc in youth football is a bit much. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it doesn't stop parents and some coaches focusing only on results. It doesn't stop the touchline arguments and fights. It doesn't stop little Johnny getting picked on 'coz his team lose every week. What it does do, to a degree, is dilute the game and takes away a valuable life lesson. How to deal with success and defeat.

IMO kids need to be taught to compete. They need to be rewarded for success. And, when a team have performed well, be rewarded collectively to highlight the importance of working together. And when things don't go quite so well, the players have to learn to ask why and build on that lesson. It doesn't have to be a brutal lesson. Any half decent coach would be able to find that balance.

We live in an age where kids of 13+ (i believe this is when football becomes competitive now?) feel they only need to turn up and they get a participation medal. I turned up up school every week. That didnt give me good grades. If kids are not taught that success is earned, we will see a generation of kids who have an overwhelming sense of entitlement... some may argue we are seeing that already. Learning to compete is one of the most valuable lessons we could ever learn.


I have to disagree. Have you ever come across a child that didn't want to win, be it in football, FIFA, Tiddlywinks or whatever? I can honestly say I haven't. Kids want to win and do not need to be taught competitiveness at all, you should not do anything to dampen that will to win, but you don't need to teach it in my experience.

Teaching them to win well and lose well is one of the most important roles of any coach, often undermined wholly by a parent who thinks they know better, usually based on some utterly inept way they were coached back in the day - with them forgetting that they didn't make the "big time" either.

I'm a big fan of participation medals, but I think you've got the name wrong. They are commitment and team spirit medals, teaching kids very real life skills that they'll use without knowing they're using later in life. Very few people work alone, most work in teams, therefore it's a great skill to embrace. Human beings respond very well to having their efforts recognised, kids are no different. Turning up on time, with the right attitude and working hard are great life skills that transcend the football pitch.

I'm all in favour of meritocracy, but I'm more in favour of teamwork on the football pitch, it's teams that win matches, not individuals. If we reward on ability alone then the same boys will win week-in, week-out, we therefore take something team-centric and make it about an individual. There's plenty of time for that when they're a bit older and need that level of challenge, up to about 12 yo they just need to be given support, encouragement and confidence to love having a ball at their feet and love having a game of football.
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john smith



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the record , any United player who sends his kid to city academy is a helmet.

they know damn well the negative press it will bring, is Citys academy that much better that they really have to send them there ??

I may be wrong , but would Sir Alex have allowed that to happen ?

I fucking doubt it Mad
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:

I have to disagree. Have you ever come across a child that didn't want to win, be it in football, FIFA, Tiddlywinks or whatever? I can honestly say I haven't. Kids want to win and do not need to be taught competitiveness at all, you should not do anything to dampen that will to win, but you don't need to teach it in my experience.


I couldn't say I've met a kid that doesn't want to win (although according to the FA kids don't have an interest winning, but that's another debate) but I have met many kids that don't ask why they didn't. As you rightly say, they play their match, get home, then sit on the xbox and forget about it. Perhaps I'm unrealistic, but I want the kids to go away from their games asking themselves "what could I do better" then get out in the garden, go to the local park and practice and work to try and improve. Not just shrug their shoulders and assume they will do better next week.

One thing I'm not sure about, you say turning up on time, working hard etc deserves reward... I'd tend to agree but part of me also asks should we award what should be the minimum requirements?
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:


I couldn't say I've met a kid that doesn't want to win (although according to the FA kids don't have an interest winning, but that's another debate) but I have met many kids that don't ask why they didn't. As you rightly say, they play their match, get home, then sit on the xbox and forget about it. Perhaps I'm unrealistic, but I want the kids to go away from their games asking themselves "what could I do better" then get out in the garden, go to the local park and practice and work to try and improve. Not just shrug their shoulders and assume they will do better next week.

One thing I'm not sure about, you say turning up on time, working hard etc deserves reward... I'd tend to agree but part of me also asks should we award what should be the minimum requirements?


I've not heard the FA saying kids have no interest in winning, I think they've just contextualised what winning means to a kid, it's a very brief experience for them & lasts between 10-20 mins after the final whistle, as does losing. It shouldn't form the focus of your training, if kids find it fun, engaging and safe then they will naturally be developing as you're challenging them with engaging games to develop their footballing skills and awareness.

I'm not sure you can ask young kids to reflect on their strengths and work on their weaknesses, if you do you have got to do this in training and give them direction, keeping it simple. As they mature then I'm sure this gets easier (in theory)

Turning up, working hard and being a team player are all skills / traits that need nurturing. Of course they're a base level of expectation, but if his/her parents don't insist on it then you shouldn't expect it by default.
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Southern Red wrote:


I couldn't say I've met a kid that doesn't want to win (although according to the FA kids don't have an interest winning, but that's another debate) but I have met many kids that don't ask why they didn't. As you rightly say, they play their match, get home, then sit on the xbox and forget about it. Perhaps I'm unrealistic, but I want the kids to go away from their games asking themselves "what could I do better" then get out in the garden, go to the local park and practice and work to try and improve. Not just shrug their shoulders and assume they will do better next week.

One thing I'm not sure about, you say turning up on time, working hard etc deserves reward... I'd tend to agree but part of me also asks should we award what should be the minimum requirements?


I've not heard the FA saying kids have no interest in winning, I think they've just contextualised what winning means to a kid, it's a very brief experience for them & lasts between 10-20 mins after the final whistle, as does losing. It shouldn't form the focus of your training, if kids find it fun, engaging and safe then they will naturally be developing as you're challenging them with engaging games to develop their footballing skills and awareness.

I'm not sure you can ask young kids to reflect on their strengths and work on their weaknesses, if you do you have got to do this in training and give them direction, keeping it simple. As they mature then I'm sure this gets easier (in theory)

Turning up, working hard and being a team player are all skills / traits that need nurturing. Of course they're a base level of expectation, but if his/her parents don't insist on it then you shouldn't expect it by default.


I've attended many FA run workshops where the focus is based on participation. Winning never comes up when kids are asked about why they play football. The answers usually are, "because I enjoy it", "because my friends play" etc. I'm sure if the question was changed to "what do you enjoy about playing football", the answers would likely change. "Scoring goals ", "winning, "doing skills".

I believe the FA have developed this idea that competition is dangerous. I disagree entirely, if it is done right. It's the coaches and parents that have the "win at all costs" mentality that is dangerous. That doesn't disappear just because the competition has.

What the FA and clubs need to be doing is reporting the abuse. I wouldn't mind some of the behavior I've seen treated as a criminal offence, and the coaches banned from the game.
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Nicolae



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
, is Citys academy that much better that they really have to send them there ??


Yes
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big clubs chasing kids is having a detrimental effect on the game the world over.

Just look at Holland. A coupla decades ago promising youngsters would break into the Ajax/PSV/Feyenoord teams, play for them for a few years, then make a big money move to a foreign club in their 20s, as complete players.

Now they're all hoovered up by the likes of Chelsea and us before they've even played a game, loaned out around Europe for years, then sold on/forgotten about. No wonder Ajax have just become Champions League cannon fodder and the national team is a shadow of what it once was.
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john smith



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicolae wrote:
john smith wrote:
, is Citys academy that much better that they really have to send them there ??


Yes


it was a rhetorical question nic.

my point was ,if your wife opens a shop selling ladies clothes, and you're ex wife opens a better shop near by selling ladies clothes, you'd go out of you way to shop at your wifes shop , because you know the message it would send going to your ex wifes.

Rooney , Cole etc know that too.
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tafkaf



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course City's academy is better than United's... just look at the massive number of players they've brought through to their first team.
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Red Snow



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
Nicolae wrote:
john smith wrote:
, is Citys academy that much better that they really have to send them there ??


Yes


it was a rhetorical question nic.

my point was ,if your wife opens a shop selling ladies clothes, and you're ex wife opens a better shop near by selling ladies clothes, you'd go out of you way to shop at your wifes shop , because you know the message it would send going to your ex wifes.

Rooney , Cole etc know that too.



Is this a tacit admission that you wear ladies' clothes, John...or should I say...Jane?
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john smith



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Snow wrote:
john smith wrote:
Nicolae wrote:
john smith wrote:
, is Citys academy that much better that they really have to send them there ??


Yes


it was a rhetorical question nic.

my point was ,if your wife opens a shop selling ladies clothes, and you're ex wife opens a better shop near by selling ladies clothes, you'd go out of you way to shop at your wifes shop , because you know the message it would send going to your ex wifes.

Rooney , Cole etc know that too.



Is this a tacit admission that you wear ladies' clothes, John...or should I say...Jane?



Embarassed I prefer Johnine Wink
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68



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving back on topic, I encountered this by chance on twitter http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Features/2017/Mar/manchester-united-academy-overview-as-programme-yields-huge-benefits.aspx

Thought it was interesting following the article on the BBC.
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