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Has Jose Lost It ?
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m42her



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 2082

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, Jose is starting to look like a relic of management.

His management style and the way we play is showing nothing that hasn't already been seen before. A standard 4-2-3-1 with a battering ram of a forward? That's basically the limit of his tactical or stylistic innovation right now.

It's so clear that his way isn't working - yet he's shown zero appetite or ability to try and come up with an innovative solution to a problem. Nor has he tried to mould the players into a team that brings the best out of them.

Just thinking of a few recent examples, but I'm sure there are a ton more...

United 07-09 - Fergie was coming out of the 4-5-1 wilderness and had an increasingly improving Ronaldo, started 06-07 with a reasonably normal 4-4-2 or a variant of it that quickly morphed into the free flowing 07-08 side of 4-3-3/4-6-0 or whatever you want to call it. It was thrilling, innovative and got the best out of the best players, playing to the strength of Ronney, Tevez and Ronaldo who were hard working and also intelligent.

Conte last season - Ripped up his initial blueprint and went to 3 at the back which has suddenly become in vogue for everyone. He had success at Juve with it, but he came to Chelsea and went against what he knew would work. The 4 at the back didn't work, so he put his tactics into play and the sheer shock of 3-4-3 took the league by complete surprise. Now everybody is doing it, he's struggled for a while but he's reacting and coming up with a solution again now.

Klopp this season - this isn't going to be popular, and yes he's won nothing, his defence is abysmal and they're scousers. BUT - he has realised he has a potent weapon in Salah and Mane's pace with Coutinho's guile and he's moulded his formation to maximise their impact. If they actually had a decent defence and keeper they'd be a serious force.

Pep - a little different but same result. Last year he tried to dogmatically impose his way onto players who simply couldn't apply it. Now rather than belie his principles he shipped out players who couldn't adapt and bought in those who could and results are clear. Not everyone has that luxury of an unlimited budget, but he's now got a system AND the players to suit it.

The point is - we have some seriously talented players allied to a lot of dross - but if we just adapted our play to maximise those players who can affect a game, we'd have such a better chance in games and we'd actually have a bit of fun doing it.

Pogba, Martial, Rashford - and maybe Mikhy, Mata, Lingard, Lukaku...why are we not playing in a way that actually gets the best out of these individuals instead of trying to wedge them into a pre-defined script?

The form should follow the function - look at the tools at our disposal and come up with a way of playing that suits those tools.

Jose has had the same blueprint since 04-05, and it doesn't look like it's ageing well.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not sure I agree with any of that m42her.

1. We’ve played more formations this season than I can remember.
2. He innovates constantly, his subs are brilliant in the main, as is his use of different formations.
3. His formations are clearly a result of the players he has available at any given time, he picks a formation based on players available and the opposition.

You’re suggesting there’s no Plan B, that we’re too rigid and he doesn’t adapt. I’m not sure that’s a fair reflection of his management at all.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a compelling argument but firstly I don't think his fundamental belief is wrong, nor do I think Drogba, Milito, Benzema or Cristiano can be dismissed as mere battering rams. I suspect he sees more in Lukaku too although I agree that using Marcus more through the middle might pay dividends, also Martial in some matches. The key seems to me to get to the point where one can be sure those alternatives will work.

The central point with regard to flexibility is agreed but I feel the judgment may be premature. It can equally be made of Pep. Except with him his style works for a few years and then he walks away and reinvents it in another league.

It takes time but Jose's track record shows that from far less auspicious beginnings he tends to get it right. He hunted Pep's style down successfully with both Inter and Real.

Time will tell but I think he builds teams which can play both with a large proportion of possession and then on the counter-attack without. I doubt he's a busted flush quite yet. Not halfway into his toughest job under constant attack from media sides (the same hyenas drove Pep to the edge of insanity last season).

We were a shambles under Moyes and LVG and two diametrically opposed types of shambles. That's what he is dealing with.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He says that we need to spend a lot more money.
Here is what he has spent to date.

Romelu Lukaku – £76m

Nemanja Matic – £40m

Victor Lindelof – £31m

Paul Pogba – £89m

Henrikh Mkhitaryan – £37m

Eric Bailly – £34m

Zlatan Ibrahimovic – Free

How much of that is money well spent ?
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eyes again



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is anyone else not too impressed with Matic?
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1999



Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyes again wrote:
Is anyone else not too impressed with Matic?


I was initially impressed by Matic and he seemed to be giving Pogba a certain freedom, but...

I posted on here a little while ago (page 1 of the Ciddy thread) that I was a bit concerned that he tends to dwell a bit on the ball a bit too much for my liking. He has a habit of taking 7 or 8 touches when 2 or 3 would suffice. It was countered (on here) that it gave our players time to 'get up' with the play and support Lukaku.
I suspect it causes us to lose a bit of impetus.

I still think he's our best (defensive) midfielder however.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stig wrote:
He says that we need to spend a lot more money.
Here is what he has spent to date.

Romelu Lukaku – £76m

Nemanja Matic – £40m

Victor Lindelof – £31m

Paul Pogba – £89m

Henrikh Mkhitaryan – £37m

Eric Bailly – £34m

Zlatan Ibrahimovic – Free

How much of that is money well spent ?


A few points in Jose's defence...

For nearly a decade we under invested. Fergie left and then the heart of the squad was ripped apart by Moyes and LVG. LVG got given money but only Martial is a regular starter. The rest, if they left now we probably wouldn't notice.

I'm a big believer that final league positon reflects how good you are. By that judgement we were the 6th best team in the county. Now, if you take Burnley/arsenal who are currently lurking in that area, how much would they have to spend to catch up with city? Id argue it's a lot more than £300m.

What I would agree with, is it does appear the money has been wasted. But you have to consider the over inflated market. This, and our desperation to catch up has meant us paying well over the odds for players and perhaps given us unrealistic expectations.

Going back to my first point about the heart being ripped out of the club, we've signed so many new players. Many have been square pegs for round holes. Its like someone has taken a load of paper, thrown it in the air, and left it to Jose to put the paper in order again.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3665

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romelu Lukaku – £76m
Nemanja Matic – £40m
Victor Lindelof – £31m
Paul Pogba – £89m
Henrikh Mkhitaryan – £37m
Eric Bailly – £34m
Zlatan Ibrahimovic – Free

How much of that is money well spent ?

I’d say it’s money well spent. Lukaku is a beast of a player, he contributes far more than goals (which he has a lot of so far). Matic is exactly what we needed, he improves Pogba. Lindelof is improving is he not? Mkhitaryan is a fine player, not on form of late but a fine player nonetheless. Bailly is an outstanding defender, our best one. Zlatan was free and delivered goals week-in week-out.

All in all I’d say it’s money well spent. Particularly when you consider Murdering Scum have just spent £75m on a centre-back that is no better than most of ours, and City spent £100m on a couple of wing-backs. Pogba is looking like a bargain in comparison.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having read replies from Southern Red and Chubby I am more inclined to agree with Southern Red.

Alan Shearer made a good point a few weeks ago that Lukaku's job is to score goals and to do so he needs to play up front and be in the middle of the box and close to goal.

He then showed clips of Lukaku allover the place. Left wing, right wing, mid-filed and Shearer says "he's not going to score from there and scoring is his job"

The two goals that Lingard scored were from the middle of the six yard box and the penalty spot - right where a striker should be positioning himself.

They say that Lingard has been pushing to play as a centre forward and not a winger -- maybe he deserves a chance.

We would not miss Lindelof and Mkhitaryan if they went tomorrow.

I think Matic and Baily are good - will be better.

Lukaku -- needs to score goals - that is how a striker is judged.

Pogba -- not £76m - but I think the purchase was somewhat of a statement of intent by Jose as much, if not more, than the actual player.
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Waggers



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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Location: Deeping St James

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to the original question; you cannot lose something you never had anyone who expected things to be different with this Manager than he was with any other team he has been in charge of is dillusional. On the points raised by the question I think he his doing a relatively good job especially in light of city’s remarkable performances.
Although he clearly likes to win he prefers not to lose and this comes across in United's play at the moment.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3665

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lukaku has got 15 goals for us this season. I think this is a good return so far, could have been better. I agree, he needs to be in the right positions and is often dropping deeper than we’d like but we are pretty poor at feeding him, so he’s dropping back too much. Rashford and Martial are the main culprits, they always seem to take a touch too many, of take on one player too many, or try to be too clever.

If we’re judging him on goals he’s not exactly letting us down.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out - that I am aware that we won two trophies last year we are second in the league, in the knockout stages of the European Cup and we are still in the F.A. Cup.

That finishing touch and at times sense of commitment from some players seems to be missing.
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cobhrambler



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1046
Location: cork ireland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid points made above,but if we are going to strengthen the squad who do you buy and for how much?
Is the quality out there at the right price?
The scouting system used to turn up a few decent players Eg The legend that is Ole,Forlan, Chicarito.....
Why is it not possible now?
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 4502

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On match of the day, so bloke, possibly for Huddersfield, ran like Usain Bolt back to defend, got on the line and made a clearance.

If Jones had shown half of this blokes effort we would have beaten Leicester.

The players are out there, I think they just look at the top names. Owning a football club has become like playing Monopoly - everyone thinks that Park Lane and Mayfair are the answer.

There are good players available - and players NEED COACHING.
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RedPhil



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 750
Location: Cheadle

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to cut our losses. Get rid
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