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Atletico Madrid forward 'sorry' for painting himself black
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
So you accept that you’d consider the culture of the company before proceeding, but still argue it’s OK? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit odd? If it’s acceptable then why give it a seconds thought?


No, we all adapt to our different social groups. I've got no problem with this type of joke at all but if I was working closely with loads of overly sensitive people who did I'd use common sense and leave it for another time. If they'd see the funny side, no problem. Doesn't mean you should automatically never do anything risque if it might offend somebody somewhere.
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Chubby



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
So you accept that you’d consider the culture of the company before proceeding, but still argue it’s OK? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit odd? If it’s acceptable then why give it a seconds thought?


No, we all adapt to our different social groups. I've got no problem with this type of joke at all but if I was working closely with loads of overly sensitive people who did I'd use common sense and leave it for another time. If they'd see the funny side, no problem. Doesn't mean you should automatically never do anything risque if it might offend somebody somewhere.


It's interesting to me the way casual racists tell the people they offend that they're being over-sensitive and then claim they apply common sense. I'd argue they are lacking in any level of common sense if they think blaming the victim, in this case someone they've racially offended, for actually being offended by their racism. I believe the zeitgeist is to refer to these people as snowflakes.

I've nothing more to say to you Dave. Your views are abhorrent to me and belong to a time that any right-minded individual would have hoped long gone. It is sadly not the case, even more sad you can't see it.
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Red Snow



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Chubby, I don't feel like continuing this conversation, particularly as I'm a minority - and certain people might want to think about this bit seriously. Or not. Ignorance these days is more of a choice than ever.

I will only add, re 'whiting up'. The idea that that is in any way equivalent to 'blacking up' is ridiculous. I've been called 'Paki', 'Asian', 'immigrant', 'wog' etc quite a few times and there is history behind those words. There is no history behind whiting up whatsoever. It isn't just the images that it conjures up for black people and minorities, it's the history.

I would recommend the 'blackface' page on wikipedia and the stereotypes it has created that still exist (the 'happy-go-lucky darky' or the 'dandified coon'): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

This is also in riposte to a certain poster on here who asked why it isn't as offensive to refer to a white person as a gorilla as it is to a black person. You know who you are and from everything I can tell, you aren't a bad person. Quite the reverse, actually. But - you didn't ask this question out of curiosity, you didn't ask it with respect or compassion, or any humanity. You asked it out of vein-throbbing outrage and entitlement - how dare they?

Personally, I feel that that is the lowest point I have had in being on this board, spanning over ten years, including a lot of time spent posting in the treble-winning days under a different name. Days when Aschunt and HPOY were our biggest problems. Halcyon days.[/i]
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RS, surely if we are all to be treated as equals than black people shouldn't be able to white up anymore than whites blacking up.

I genuinely feel that society is creating a new problem where white people are scared to challenge minorities for fear of being labelled racist. When a white police office stops a black man they are often met with accusations of racism. Why is racism instantly assumed? Is it because they are white? The grenfell inquest we are seeing BAME people openly claim they don't trust white people to represent them. This, in my opinion, is racist. If a white person attacks a black person it's a hate crime, the other way around it's just assault.

Whilst history is important and it is vital lessons are learned and not forgotten, the focus should be where we are as a sociaty now and where we want to go. I have no doubt there are elements of racism still in sociaty but decent people are labelled as racist when there is genuinely no intention to be offensive. Sometimes I think we should take a gesture as it's intended, not look for a way to be offended by the gesture


Last edited by Southern Red on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Red Snow



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SR. There is much I agree with you on and some I disagree. Let me try and sensibly distinguish the two.

Assuming as you and many other do that full equality is a good thing, blacking up and whiting up are not equal and at this moment cannot be. As I pointed out earlier, there is an awful history behind blacking up. Every time you black up, you invoke that history and it's your choice to make to do so. There is no history behind whiting up beyond the odd joke here and there, White Chicks being one of them. The thinking behind that film presumably is "there's an awful lot of history of racism and blacking up, that still happens to this day. Wouldn't it be funny if we got some ghetto boys to white up?".

It's a little bit like when men make a joke to women along the lines of, "don't look at me like a piece of meat". Is it funny? As with any joke, depends upon the delivery and the context. Simple reversal.

And it isn't just blacking up. Ask yourself, would you go to a fancy dress party dresses as a Jew and wear a false big nose? Or make a joke about how he's love money? If not, what is the difference between that and blacking up.

If you DO choose to do either, you know the choice you're making and you know the response you will get.

I sympathise with your mention of innocent people being tarred with the racist brush. There are people who have asked me where I'm from. Not being white, the assumption behind the question is obvious: I can't be British. It also conjures up some unpleasant images. However, I often bite my tongue and tell them I'm from London and my parents are Indian. They then start telling me their favourite curry is vindaloo. Now both of these statements can be seen as racist. I think the curry statement isn't racist, it's usually just a way the questioner is using to have a conversation with me, of relating to me. Are both of them offensive? Is one? Or are neither offensive? I would say asking where I'm from or - better still - where I'm REALLY from, is not a kind and respectful thing to do, particularly as it's clear when speaking to me that I'm very obviously English.

Will there be people who fly off the handle at either or both? I have no doubt. But you can surely see the nuance here?

As to the police example, it's a simple statistical fact that minorities, particularly black people, are stopped and are in jail disproportionately. David Lammy's recent inquiry has all the facts and is freely available, with lots of illuminating data. Is it right for a black person to simply assume it's racist? No it is not right - but utterly understandable. This should be sobering to you: every single black man I know has been stopped and searched. Every. Single. One. I know lots of white lads who have gone their whole life charlied to their tits and never been stopped. Part of it is a class thing but - and I have worked in this area - I've seen the disproportionate reaction by some police officers. And I also happen to work with the police so I'm not out to demonise them at all.

I havent heard any Grenfell victims say they aren't prepared to be represented by a white person. I do not mean to insult you, but could I please have a link? I'd like to read it and process it. If true, I think it's wrong and, yes, racist. I also think it's their right to get whatever representation they want but I cannot get on board with refusing a white person at all.

When you say you worry that white people can't challenge minorities for fear of being called racist, I have to ask: challenge them about what? If you're challenging a black woman on their views about blacking up, as above, then I think you run that risk and justifiably. This is a complex issue and they are the ones with the grievance and a failure to recognise that and, no pun intended, rub their faces in it is a racist act. But if you're challenging them on, say, their interpretation of quantum mechanics or their reading of Nietzsche then why would be accused of being racist? Do you have examples?

" If a white person attacks a black person it's a hate crime, the other way around it's just assault. " I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic. Because the stats are not bearing this out. Do you have evidence that this reclassification of violent crime is rife?

Is decent people being accused of being racist something I approve of? No. Never. For me it is a grave injustice if someone who isn't racist is accused of it for no reason. And most people, minority or otherwise, would agree, in my experience.

You say history is important but we need to think about moving forward. Well, you have it right in front of you SR. A minority person is respectfully telling you they find blacking up offensive, disrespectful and abhorrent and that they don't want to go forward as a society to a place where people black up against the wishes of - in the teeth of - the groups that are most affected by it. What is your response?
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tafkaf



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we're not all lucky Heather sellers either!
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eyes again



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOFB wrote:
People really will go out of their way to be offended these days.








this, and best post thus far I have read, get over it.
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eyes again



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
We'll agree to disagree, Dave.

I would not turn up to a bar mitzvah dressed as a Nazi, in the same way I wouldn't choose to black-up in any form for fancy dress. They are at very least inappropriate, at worst they are grossly offensive. Why run the risk?

With an almost limitless amount of non-offensive options to choose I'd choose one of those. I think this is particularly important when you're in the the public eye.


A Harlem Globetrotter is hardly the same as a Nazi for Jews. It's not a Minstrel FFS.



This is where you're missing the point entirely, it's about blacking up, not about what you black up as. I would argue, with strong evidence from history, that white people are as responsible for an equal level of evil against black people as Nazi's were to Jews.




OH FFS seriously! What a crock of shit mate.
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Chubby



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyes again wrote:
Chubby wrote:


This is where you're missing the point entirely, it's about blacking up, not about what you black up as. I would argue, with strong evidence from history, that white people are as responsible for an equal level of evil against black people as Nazi's were to Jews.


OH FFS seriously! What a crock of shit mate.


Confused You seriously can’t be this ignorant, Eyes. Are you not aware of the slave trade? 12.5 million Africans were sent to the US alone, sold into slavary, taken from their homes by force, taken from their families. Many didn’t survive the trip, for those that did the outcome was little better, sold to greedy landowners to be enslaved forever more. FFS indeed.

The ignorance on show in this thread is shocking. People of colour telling you all they find blackface offensive, but some privelaged white folk saying they should not be so over sensitive. This is the very definition of white privelage.

Read this https://www.vox.com/2014/10/29/7089591/dont-get-whats-wrong-with-blackface-heres-why-its-so-offensive & whatever you do, make yourself less ignorant & make yourself part of the solution, rather than continuing to be part of the problem.

As per the article, if you can’t agree that blacking up is bad, then flip the question on its head and ask yourself what is good about it?
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eyes again



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very aware of it,Do you want to keep fighting the injustice of 150 years ago still, or move on?
Personally I am so sick of hearing , and being lectured about this crap. It were not just blacks who were put into slavery. As for racism , well it goes both ways. I have been called all sorts of crap from paki, to spik etc, and I honestly do not give a fuck mate.
As for people on this thread being ignorant, why , because it dos not fit your views. Are you outraged when blacks whiten their faces? No course not. Anyway enough from me about this crap. Merry Christmas to all the lads on here.
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tafkaf



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merry Christmas Eyes, you spik.... from this Oirish pikey. Lol.
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The Dave



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
So you accept that you’d consider the culture of the company before proceeding, but still argue it’s OK? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit odd? If it’s acceptable then why give it a seconds thought?


No, we all adapt to our different social groups. I've got no problem with this type of joke at all but if I was working closely with loads of overly sensitive people who did I'd use common sense and leave it for another time. If they'd see the funny side, no problem. Doesn't mean you should automatically never do anything risque if it might offend somebody somewhere.


It's interesting to me the way casual racists tell the people they offend that they're being over-sensitive and then claim they apply common sense. I'd argue they are lacking in any level of common sense if they think blaming the victim, in this case someone they've racially offended, for actually being offended by their racism. I believe the zeitgeist is to refer to these people as snowflakes.

I've nothing more to say to you Dave. Your views are abhorrent to me and belong to a time that any right-minded individual would have hoped long gone. It is sadly not the case, even more sad you can't see it.


Yes, what an abhorrent relic I am. How dare I try to look at things objectively and attempt to sensibly argue my point. How dare I suggest that there's a difference to direct intended nasty racism and people's cheeky laughs being taken too seriously. How dare I believe that the world would be better if we stopped looking for ways find the worst in each other.

Whereas you, with your oh-so-righteous social media era posturing, your eagerness to tell others how to think and act, your willingness to put people in boxes and identify reasons to stoke up feelings of hatred toward them. You Sir, are nothing short of a living fucking saint.
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cobhrambler



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merry Christmas!
Whatever colour,race,creed,gender,shape or size you are!
Blessed to be Irish!!!!
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Southern Red



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Snow wrote:
SR. There is much I agree with you on and some I disagree. Let me try and sensibly distinguish the two.

Assuming as you and many other do that full equality is a good thing, blacking up and whiting up are not equal and at this moment cannot be. As I pointed out earlier, there is an awful history behind blacking up. Every time you black up, you invoke that history and it's your choice to make to do so. There is no history behind whiting up beyond the odd joke here and there, White Chicks being one of them. The thinking behind that film presumably is "there's an awful lot of history of racism and blacking up, that still happens to this day. Wouldn't it be funny if we got some ghetto boys to white up?". You keep referring to history, but what about the future? If we are allowing blacks to mock whites do you not think this will cause future issues? It doesn't matter what colour you are, what history says, mocking ANYONE based in colour should be deemed wrong

And it isn't just blacking up. Ask yourself, would you go to a fancy dress party dresses as a Jew and wear a false big nose? Or make a joke about how he's love money? If not, what is the difference between that and blacking up. Personally I wouldn't dress up. But I would argue that the fact people are happy to dress themselves in attire associated with a group previously heavily discriminated against shows society no longer sees these groups in a negative way. Isnt this a positive?

As to the police example, it's a simple statistical fact that minorities, particularly black people, are stopped and are in jail disproportionately. David Lammy's recent inquiry has all the facts and is freely available, with lots of illuminating data. Is it right for a black person to simply assume it's racist? No it is not right - but utterly understandable. Do you also think it would be understandable if an officer takes exception to being labelled racist? Do you not think it could plant a seed of doubt into a white officers head when faced with having to stop a BAME person? (More on this later)

This should be sobering to you: every single black man I know has been stopped and searched. Every. Single. One. I know lots of white lads who have gone their whole life charlied to their tits and never been stopped. Part of it is a class thing but - and I have worked in this area - I've seen the disproportionate reaction by some police officers. And I also happen to work with the police so I'm not out to demonise them at all.This is absolutely a class thing. I've been stopped countless times, as have most people I used to knock about with. Again, I would be interested to see what percentage of BAME/white actually stopped were released/arrested/charged. Ive looked, but never found a like for like comparison.

I havent heard any Grenfell victims say they aren't prepared to be represented by a white person. I do not mean to insult you, but could I please have a link?
https://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-inquiry-risks-being-whitewash-without-diverse-panel-say-families-11151098

Although it doesn't claim they aren't prepared to be represented by a white person (not something I suggested), but it does mention trust. Whilst I would sympathise and say trust should be earned (although if I said I didn't trust BAME's to represent me I feel that would be seen as racist), those in charge of the inquiry should be given the opportunity to earn their trust, rather than dismiss them outright


When you say you worry that white people can't challenge minorities for fear of being called racist, I have to ask: challenge them about what? Rotherham sex scandal and the Victoria Climbié case are high profile cases that the fear of being labelled as racist has prevented people challenging BAME's. Referring back to my comments on police, the more the racism card is played, the more likely a crime will be missed for fear of being called racist. I'd suspect this just scratches the surface.


" If a white person attacks a black person it's a hate crime, the other way around it's just assault. " I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic. Because the stats are not bearing this out. Do you have evidence that this reclassification of violent crime is rife? Although I don't have stats to back it up, they just don't seem to exist, I would suspect that a white person accusing a BAME of racism isn't taken as seriously. The same happened when I questioned the film white chicks. My view was instantly dismissed. I think it is a clear example of how we can mock whites but not BAME's. I suspect I have also been a victim of racism. I felt I was completely ignored by black African women at work. That was until recently, when I started working with my new black colleague. Since working with him I have been treated completely differently, almost like I have now been accepted into some exclusive club. If I reported my concerns, do you think it would have been treated the same as a BAME accusing me?

You say history is important but we need to think about moving forward. Well, you have it right in front of you SR. A minority person is respectfully telling you they find blacking up offensive, disrespectful and abhorrent and that they don't want to go forward as a society to a place where people black up against the wishes of - in the teeth of - the groups that are most affected by it. What is your response? [B]My response, I respect your views, of course. I haven't questioned our right to be offended. But what I hate, possibly as much as you hate blacking up, is this assumption that white people, and only white people are racist and cannot be trusted.

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