m-u-f-c Message Board

 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Brighton
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    m-u-f-c.co.uk Forum Index -> m-u-f-c General Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 2438
Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:

He is abusing Shaw, trying to show how poor some recent spending has been but he is every bit as much to blame.

He doesn't allow Shaw off the lead, always demanding he is shackled into the 'position' he wants him to play.

Not like this is a one off with Jose either. You could argue that 2 of the PLs best players this season were Jose outcasts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing with Shaw is that Young is better at going forward and better at defending, there’s a discipline issue with Shaw from his weight challenges to his positional sense - he isn’t doing much to prove the manager wrong, at the same time the manager isn’t doing much to encourage him. It’s enivtable he will leave imho, on his form for United it will not be a huge loss.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dark-shade-of-red



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 5769
Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The thing with Shaw is that Young is better at going forward and better at defending, there’s a discipline issue with Shaw from his weight challenges to his positional sense - he isn’t doing much to prove the manager wrong, at the same time the manager isn’t doing much to encourage him. It’s enivtable he will leave imho, on his form for United it will not be a huge loss.


Do you honestly believe Young is better attacking full-back than Shaw?

I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.

Dodgy weight and fitness aside, Shaw is far superior as a wing-back than that of Young IMO.
_________________
"United's success has generated its wealth; City's wealth has generated its success. Anything else is just piss and wind."

Cheerful Sid
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:02 pm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark-shade-of-red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
The thing with Shaw is that Young is better at going forward and better at defending, there’s a discipline issue with Shaw from his weight challenges to his positional sense - he isn’t doing much to prove the manager wrong, at the same time the manager isn’t doing much to encourage him. It’s enivtable he will leave imho, on his form for United it will not be a huge loss.


Do you honestly believe Young is better attacking full-back than Shaw?

I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.

Dodgy weight and fitness aside, Shaw is far superior as a wing-back than that of Young IMO.


Then how can he not get a run in the side? The stats don’t lie either, Young’s assists and goals suggest he’s better than Shaw on recent form. All Shaw has is potential, lots of it, but so far that’s all and he’s not doing well enough to keep a lesser player out of the team. Jose is not wrong to pick Young ahead of Shaw.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. He's rubbish because I say he's rubbish so I will give him few chances to show otherwise and when I do appear to give him an opportunity I will pull him. I couldn't see any reason to single Shaw out and all around me were equally mystified. It looks to me like the way he treated Schweinsteiger.

I acknowledge that may not be right but, having not heard his outburst until JS posted it, that seems to me to compound the problem. There may be some logic to the most recent outbursts but how can any coach in this situation not take a close look at himself?

I feel Shaw has no way forward. I think he will come back to haunt us but even if he doesn't I feel this is inexcusable victimisation. I'm a Jose supporter but I won't stand for that. He needs to build some bridges - fast.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next time Shaw plays watch closely the positions he takes up, they are generally awful and he relies on his speed to get him out of trouble, he doesn’t seem to know where he should be when defending. I’m being super-critical as it’s fairly basic stuff he’s consistently getting wrong. I don’t think that’s match fitness, I think it’s footballing know-how, he doesn’t appear to know how.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 2438
Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Next time Shaw plays watch closely the positions he takes up, they are generally awful and he relies on his speed to get him out of trouble, he doesn’t seem to know where he should be when defending. I’m being super-critical as it’s fairly basic stuff he’s consistently getting wrong. I don’t think that’s match fitness, I think it’s footballing know-how, he doesn’t appear to know how.


The guy has Jose constantly barking at him. How can he focus on his game when he is constantly shouted at? It can't do much for the players confidence. He is a young player. He'll get his positions wrong. He'll learn from the mistakes. Mistakes which all our players are making...and regardless of any of the negitives, the level of critiscm isn't proportionate to the crime. I wouldn't expect ANY player to be at their best after being treated the way he has
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Next time Shaw plays watch closely the positions he takes up, they are generally awful and he relies on his speed to get him out of trouble, he doesn’t seem to know where he should be when defending. I’m being super-critical as it’s fairly basic stuff he’s consistently getting wrong. I don’t think that’s match fitness, I think it’s footballing know-how, he doesn’t appear to know how.


The guy has Jose constantly barking at him. How can he focus on his game when he is constantly shouted at? It can't do much for the players confidence. He is a young player. He'll get his positions wrong. He'll learn from the mistakes. Mistakes which all our players are making...and regardless of any of the negitives, the level of critiscm isn't proportionate to the crime. I wouldn't expect ANY player to be at their best after being treated the way he has


This is even worse imho. Not only does he not have the know how to take appropriate positions, he's also a delicate flower that wilts under pressure from the manager. The former he can work on, the latter is something you can't really teach. Are these the qualities we expect of a Manchester United player? You have to be strong to wear the shirt of Manchester United, for many that shirt would carry too much weight. If you add on to this his weight issues is Luke Shaw's head in the right space to ever be successful at United? I think we're seeing the answer, he's young, he may turn it around but it's far too easy/lazy to blame the manager for Luke Shaw not playing well and to his potential.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough points. I can understand that Jose may have lost patience with him as he has done famously with other young players. I accept also that Luke's record of 40 or so appearances cannot all be explained by his injury in 2015.

I do however think the humiliation unnecessary and I feel it shows much more the strain our manager is under. It may not be the beginning of the end but it is the end of the beginning. I doubt anyone will be quite so convinced now of his rhetoric; he needs to demonstrate his methods still work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark-shade-of-red wrote:


Do you honestly believe Young is better attacking full-back than Shaw?

I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.

Dodgy weight and fitness aside, Shaw is far superior as a wing-back than that of Young IMO.


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TOFB



Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1988
Location: Cavan, Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While Shaw isn’t perfect, I cannot see a reason to have Ashley Young in there ahead of him. He was at fault for both goals against Sevilla, and his own positioning is very questionable at times. Any time I’ve seen Shaw playing I’ve never seen any major issue to report.
_________________
"This does not slip now"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 2438
Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
dark-shade-of-red wrote:


Do you honestly believe Young is better attacking full-back than Shaw?

I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.

Dodgy weight and fitness aside, Shaw is far superior as a wing-back than that of Young IMO.


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.

He's a full back. They don't get many goals/assists. But he does have more than your suggesting. I'm fairly certain he's had a few this season, as well as forcing goalkeepers to make good saves.

Regardless of our differences in opinion, no young player deserves the treatment he is receiving. If he hasn't quite got it, send him on loan, let him play/learn. As for the "delicate flower" comment... He is a young player being thrown under a bus. If our young players are not going to be given the chance to make and learn from mistakes we might as well just close the academy down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 5945
Location: Duck Fat City Limits

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.


Well he isn't a winger and I'm not seeing many people say he is.

Your stats are wrong by the way according to the PL's own website he has 3 assists in the premier league and has also hit the woodwork once (seriously they have a stat for that).

I think we all know that when he was bought there was no doubt he was the most promising young full back in Britain. Injury and changing managers, styles & formations have hampered him. Yes, he does seem to have had a bit of an issue with his weight (who am I to speak eh?) but the way the manager is so publicly exposing him to ridicule is not on.

The lad needs to be allowed to make some mistakes sometimes as part of his development OR sell him. What José is doing is deliberate he is trying to embarrass the lad and at the same time prove a point to the board "see I told you I needed £60m for a new left back!". It has to stop. Maz has made a good point on another thread about deflecting any blame from himself, if the squad fails he was right and told you all along that he needed more investment (even if he gets the sack) if the squad succeeds then his way and methods were right all along.

He is doing what he has done at every other club he has been at, deliberately destabilise it, upset everyone, cause rifts and then hope he comes out on top with a huge transfer budget and a ringing endorsement from the board, when he doesn't get this he moves on. My guess is that he'll move on and I have to say it's my current preference.
_________________
The situation regarding spoons remains unchanged, if I see one, I will kill it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
Chubby wrote:


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.


Well he isn't a winger and I'm not seeing many people say he is.

Your stats are wrong by the way according to the PL's own website he has 3 assists in the premier league and has also hit the woodwork once (seriously they have a stat for that).

I think we all know that when he was bought there was no doubt he was the most promising young full back in Britain. Injury and changing managers, styles & formations have hampered him. Yes, he does seem to have had a bit of an issue with his weight (who am I to speak eh?) but the way the manager is so publicly exposing him to ridicule is not on.

The lad needs to be allowed to make some mistakes sometimes as part of his development OR sell him. What José is doing is deliberate he is trying to embarrass the lad and at the same time prove a point to the board "see I told you I needed £60m for a new left back!". It has to stop. Maz has made a good point on another thread about deflecting any blame from himself, if the squad fails he was right and told you all along that he needed more investment (even if he gets the sack) if the squad succeeds then his way and methods were right all along.

He is doing what he has done at every other club he has been at, deliberately destabilise it, upset everyone, cause rifts and then hope he comes out on top with a huge transfer budget and a ringing endorsement from the board, when he doesn't get this he moves on. My guess is that he'll move on and I have to say it's my current preference.


It was DSoR that suggested he was a sublime winger. I personally think he's neither a winger or particularly sublime. Wink

With regards his stats, see https://www.premierleague.com/players/4608/Luke-Shaw/stats - agreed he's hit the woodwork though.

Of course various managers haven't helped but that's the same for all players and they should be good enough to adapt, or they should be sold on. A player with so much potential should be able to adapt.

What we don't see is how the lad trains and that is 95% of his working week. What we do know is that successive managers at United, plus their peers at Southampton have said he's not a good trainer. Perhaps the manager has tried the arm around the shoulder technique, perhaps that hasn't worked with Shaw, perhaps he's the type of player that responds to a kick up the arse. Frankly the vast majority of our players need a kick up the arse and have done since SAF left.

This should not be considered a defence of Jose btw, thinking Shaw is shooting himself in the foot does not mean I agree with Jose's handling. Like everything, there is far more to these situations then we ever get to see or know, but Shaw has certainly not helped himself.

This isn't a binary Shaw good / Jose bad or Jose good / Shaw bad discussion but I've yet to see much from Shaw under any United manager that makes me think he'll be world-class. Yes he was good at Southampton, but then again so was Lovren, Lalana and Schniederlin

He is no Irwin or Evra in the making at present, and unfortunately that's the quality I'm judging him against.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
dark-shade-of-red wrote:


Do you honestly believe Young is better attacking full-back than Shaw?

I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.

Dodgy weight and fitness aside, Shaw is far superior as a wing-back than that of Young IMO.


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.

He's a full back. They don't get many goals/assists. But he does have more than your suggesting. I'm fairly certain he's had a few this season, as well as forcing goalkeepers to make good saves.

Regardless of our differences in opinion, no young player deserves the treatment he is receiving. If he hasn't quite got it, send him on loan, let him play/learn. As for the "delicate flower" comment... He is a young player being thrown under a bus. If our young players are not going to be given the chance to make and learn from mistakes we might as well just close the academy down.


We do not play 4-4-2 and we don't have full-backs, we have wing-backs that are expected to attack when we have possession.

I think we should stop calling him a young player, he's done 6 seasons in the first team (2 at Southampton and 4 at United). He's not a novice and shouldn't be treated as one. He's a multi-millionaire footballer doing a job that most people would give their left bollock to do. The least he should be expected to do is watch what he eats and train especially hard as he struggles with his weight. The last thing he should be seeking is a safe space away from criticism.
_________________
Nic... I dare say you could kick everyone's arse on Mastermind with United as your specialist subject.... Pedantic wank-wipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    m-u-f-c.co.uk Forum Index -> m-u-f-c General Forum All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group