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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Chubby this hasn't shaken your confidence in Jose at all?

I can't help but feel if he'd pulled one or two v Sevilla and given these reasons he'd have more sympathy. Indeed if he'd done so early doors against Huddersfield!

It all looks a bit contrived that it's Luke Shaw on his first start for a while. He was very much involved in an attacking sense in the set up of the Lukaku goal even if Matic's pass put it on the plate.
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Chubby



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
So Chubby this hasn't shaken your confidence in Jose at all?

I can't help but feel if he'd pulled one or two v Sevilla and given these reasons he'd have more sympathy. Indeed if he'd done so early doors against Huddersfield!

It all looks a bit contrived that it's Luke Shaw on his first start for a while. He was very much involved in an attacking sense in the set up of the Lukaku goal even if Matic's pass put it on the plate.


His treatment of Shaw hasn't shaken my confidence in Jose, not one jot.

However, the shite football that we've been churning out certainly has, plus his mood swings and general demeanour. I'm hoping we see a more aggressive Jose in the coming weeks/months, less moody per se but more balls out and giving some underperforming players what for - they fucking deserve some stick in my opinion if they can't pass a ball 20 yards to feet.
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cobhrambler



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is outcry now if a manager criticises a player for not obeying tactics.
Mourinho didn't become successful by being a nice guy however I don't think Fergie would tolerate Pogbas antics..haircuts etc like he does...
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cobhrambler wrote:
I don't think Fergie would tolerate Pogbas antics..haircuts etc like he does...


SAF was the one that let him leave, maybe he saw something in him all those years ago.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cobhrambler wrote:
I don't think Fergie would tolerate Pogbas antics..haircuts etc like he does...


He would’ve if the player was doing it on the pitch. SAF was pragmatic in his leadership style, he let the individuals express themselves as long as they turned up and performed week-in, week-out.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
cobhrambler wrote:
I don't think Fergie would tolerate Pogbas antics..haircuts etc like he does...


He would’ve if the player was doing it on the pitch. SAF was pragmatic in his leadership style, he let the individuals express themselves as long as they turned up and performed week-in, week-out.


pragmatic was not a word you would usually associate with Sir Alec , but he did let certain players get away with a lot more than others, he let one certain french man pretty much do as he pleased.

as chubbs says the key factor was they did it on the pitch, in eric case almost single handedley .
pogba should watch videos of eric and see, you do the gesticulating WHEN you have been the main man, not because you think you're the main man.
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dark-shade-of-red



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Zoolander wrote:
Chubby wrote:


Shaw has played 99 times in the Premier League, he has scored no goals and provided no assists in that time. On the basis that an attacking full-back has to be good at attacking then Ashley Young scores more & assists more - these are the facts and I'm sure this is what Jose and the coaching team also see.

Don't get me wrong, I desperately want all United players to do well, Shaw is no exception but I'm not seeing anything in his performances that warrant him being described as a sublime winger. Sublime wingers create and score goals, Shaw does neither.


Well he isn't a winger and I'm not seeing many people say he is.

Your stats are wrong by the way according to the PL's own website he has 3 assists in the premier league and has also hit the woodwork once (seriously they have a stat for that).

I think we all know that when he was bought there was no doubt he was the most promising young full back in Britain. Injury and changing managers, styles & formations have hampered him. Yes, he does seem to have had a bit of an issue with his weight (who am I to speak eh?) but the way the manager is so publicly exposing him to ridicule is not on.

The lad needs to be allowed to make some mistakes sometimes as part of his development OR sell him. What José is doing is deliberate he is trying to embarrass the lad and at the same time prove a point to the board "see I told you I needed £60m for a new left back!". It has to stop. Maz has made a good point on another thread about deflecting any blame from himself, if the squad fails he was right and told you all along that he needed more investment (even if he gets the sack) if the squad succeeds then his way and methods were right all along.

He is doing what he has done at every other club he has been at, deliberately destabilise it, upset everyone, cause rifts and then hope he comes out on top with a huge transfer budget and a ringing endorsement from the board, when he doesn't get this he moves on. My guess is that he'll move on and I have to say it's my current preference.



It was DSoR that suggested he was a sublime winger. I personally think he's neither a winger or particularly sublime. Wink

With regards his stats, see https://www.premierleague.com/players/4608/Luke-Shaw/stats - agreed he's hit the woodwork though.

Of course various managers haven't helped but that's the same for all players and they should be good enough to adapt, or they should be sold on. A player with so much potential should be able to adapt.

What we don't see is how the lad trains and that is 95% of his working week. What we do know is that successive managers at United, plus their peers at Southampton have said he's not a good trainer. Perhaps the manager has tried the arm around the shoulder technique, perhaps that hasn't worked with Shaw, perhaps he's the type of player that responds to a kick up the arse. Frankly the vast majority of our players need a kick up the arse and have done since SAF left.

This should not be considered a defence of Jose btw, thinking Shaw is shooting himself in the foot does not mean I agree with Jose's handling. Like everything, there is far more to these situations then we ever get to see or know, but Shaw has certainly not helped himself.

This isn't a binary Shaw good / Jose bad or Jose good / Shaw bad discussion but I've yet to see much from Shaw under any United manager that makes me think he'll be world-class. Yes he was good at Southampton, but then again so was Lovren, Lalana and Schniederlin

He is no Irwin or Evra in the making at present, and unfortunately that's the quality I'm judging him against.


I said attacking full-back!!!
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSoR, you said and I quote “I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.“
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:




various managers haven't helped but that's the same for all players and they should be good enough to adapt, or they should be sold on. A player with so much potential should be able to adapt.


I agree but Jose isn't selling is he. He should have sold him in the summer, I'm not trying to defend Shaw's ability & attitude, I am pointing out that Jose is empire building & using Shaw in the process. That won't help Utd to sell him, it won't help Shaw and it's making Jose look like a spiteful bully.

Chubby wrote:
What we don't see is how the lad trains and that is 95% of his working week. What we do know is that successive managers at United, plus their peers at Southampton have said he's not a good trainer. Perhaps the manager has tried the arm around the shoulder technique, perhaps that hasn't worked with Shaw, perhaps he's the type of player that responds to a kick up the arse. Frankly the vast majority of our players need a kick up the arse and have done since SAF left.

As I've said many times recently the recruitment at Utd over the last 5 years has been appalling. If the lad likes a pizza and an armchair then he wasn't for us, never was and we shouldn't have bought him. That doesn't excuse the treatment and public humiliation he is getting now from Jose.

Chubby wrote:

He is no Irwin or Evra in the making at present, and unfortunately that's the quality I'm judging him against.

That's the quality he should be judged against and I agree he falls well short of that, I just have an issue with the very public way Jose is going about his business at present and this is one of a number of issues and it marks him out as a man struggling to live up to the job and lashing out. It's a trait I've seen myself in my professional life and I don't like it. It's weak and cowardly. For me the player should have been sold simple as that but I think this points to a much bigger problem at Utd, who really has the power? Moyes transfer dealings were shambolic & he never made the squad & dressing room his own. LVG started but couldn't deliver enough to keep the wolves from the door whilst he rebuilt. Now Jose is losing the plot and instead of a good sweep clean he bemoaning everyone and everything, time he went too in my opinion.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you Zoo, Jose is becoming difficult to defend, whereas the football itself has been largely unforgivable given the talent we have on show. We have some of the fastest players in the league but we play with no pace, no tempo. We also have some young legs out there, we should be able to press teams into submission, but we stand off them. At present its like watching the LvG team.

I do however think we have about 10 players either stealing a living or well past their sell-by date, Zlatan and Carrick are both fairly much finished as players. We have Blind, the Human Tree, Shaw, Smalling and Darmian - that's 7 that could and should leave this summer. There will be a couple of reserves in the mix to exit.

I'd like to see Jose get rid of some of the dross, bring in a few more like Lukaku and Matic that appear to give a shit and see where that takes us. I see no benefit and no obvious candidate to replace him at present.

Plenty of talk that he's yesterday's man but is that fair or factual? Other than this season last season Conte's Chelsea were champions, the year before it was Leicester playing 4-4-2. Were either of these deploying radically different tactics? The Champions League has been dominated in recent years by Real Madrid. Are they playing a new style of football? I'm not convinced they are. I'm not sure football has moved on at all, so I'm not sure that Jose is as out of touch with the football zeitgeist as the ABU media would have us all believe.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:


Plenty of talk that he's yesterday's man but is that fair or factual? Other than this season last season Conte's Chelsea were champions, the year before it was Leicester playing 4-4-2. Were either of these deploying radically different tactics? The Champions League has been dominated in recent years by Real Madrid. Are they playing a new style of football? I'm not convinced they are. I'm not sure football has moved on at all, so I'm not sure that Jose is as out of touch with the football zeitgeist as the ABU media would have us all believe.


That RM team did appear to need the release from the straitjacket though. Jose put together the building blocks but Zidane made them a much more exciting team.

No, there isn't a great deal different in the way the game is played. The question is whether Jose can adapt to his players' strengths. I'd like to think he can but I've seen no evidence as yet. SAF did it three or four times.

The other thing is that Jose has brought in 8 players since he arrived. Matic and Lukaku are the two successes (you could say Romero too but he doesn't play much). Bailly looks very good but his injuries have held him back. Lindeloff - well he has potential so too early to judge. The flair players - Ibra (yes, okay a short-term success) but Pogba and Mkhi?

Finally, is it really coincidence that the guys who get the hard time are all LVG buys? Blind, Shaw, Herrera sidelined, Schweini gone, Martial - well, where is he in the pecking order? Moyes' signings (Mata and Fellaini) have done better but Mata is still first to be subbed.

Sounds like Zoo is right and he wants a whole new team except DDG - but some of those choices are not really on the money.
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dark-shade-of-red



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
DSoR, you said and I quote “I don't doubt that Young has more or less deserved to keep his place in many cases but surely we've seen enough of the boy Shaw at Southampton and glimpses at United when played, that he is a sublime winger.“


I did say attacking full-back with a follow on of expressing that he is a sublime winger. In essence, as an attacking full back which he is, he is sublime at the winger bit.

I’m going for a lie down.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
Chubby wrote:


Plenty of talk that he's yesterday's man but is that fair or factual? Other than this season last season Conte's Chelsea were champions, the year before it was Leicester playing 4-4-2. Were either of these deploying radically different tactics? The Champions League has been dominated in recent years by Real Madrid. Are they playing a new style of football? I'm not convinced they are. I'm not sure football has moved on at all, so I'm not sure that Jose is as out of touch with the football zeitgeist as the ABU media would have us all believe.


That RM team did appear to need the release from the straitjacket though. Jose put together the building blocks but Zidane made them a much more exciting team.

No, there isn't a great deal different in the way the game is played. The question is whether Jose can adapt to his players' strengths. I'd like to think he can but I've seen no evidence as yet. SAF did it three or four times.

The other thing is that Jose has brought in 8 players since he arrived. Matic and Lukaku are the two successes (you could say Romero too but he doesn't play much). Bailly looks very good but his injuries have held him back. Lindeloff - well he has potential so too early to judge. The flair players - Ibra (yes, okay a short-term success) but Pogba and Mkhi?

Finally, is it really coincidence that the guys who get the hard time are all LVG buys? Blind, Shaw, Herrera sidelined, Schweini gone, Martial - well, where is he in the pecking order? Moyes' signings (Mata and Fellaini) have done better but Mata is still first to be subbed.

Sounds like Zoo is right and he wants a whole new team except DDG - but some of those choices are not really on the money.


It took SAF 4 years to turn things around at United, he inherited plenty of shite, bought a bunch of shite too. Managers don't get 4 years to turn a club around any longer, but I think we forget just how bad we'd become under LvG. LvG created the mindset that continues today, ponderous, sideways football with no real tempo.

I think a big clear out in the summer is needed, with some additions to the squad to replace Joe Average types with the right class of player that we need.

We need 3-4 players that would walk into any team in the world.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:


We need 3-4 players that would walk into any team in the world.

First we need to get the best out of the players we have. We've had/have got some quality players. Players that are playing way below the level they've set themselves.

When we make these signings I no longer get excited by it. Pogba, Sanchez (although early days), Di Maria for example... all fantastic records at other clubs but done fuck all with us so far. We don't need "world class superstars", we need players with something to prove. Players that have the drive to succeed. I know it's easy to look at the signings made by rivals but we've got very little/no value for money. Our scouts etc need to get off their arses and find the next best thing. Not look at Twitter and see who's got the most followers.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:


We need 3-4 players that would walk into any team in the world.

First we need to get the best out of the players we have. We've had/have got some quality players. Players that are playing way below the level they've set themselves.

When we make these signings I no longer get excited by it. Pogba, Sanchez (although early days), Di Maria for example... all fantastic records at other clubs but done fuck all with us so far. We don't need "world class superstars", we need players with something to prove. Players that have the drive to succeed. I know it's easy to look at the signings made by rivals but we've got very little/no value for money. Our scouts etc need to get off their arses and find the next best thing. Not look at Twitter and see who's got the most followers.


Context required, if we get rid of the dross we have a chance - we are only as strong as our weakest players and there’s too many of them at United.
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