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Fuck knows anymore...
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m42her



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 2082

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Fuck knows anymore... Reply with quote

Still in an absolute daze as to what exactly happened and how it happened...

Did we win because of the manager or in spite of the manager?

Do our players actually have character or is it just talent that isn't being consistently applied? Coming back from 2-0 away to City suggests we do. Going 2-0 down in the first place suggests not. What if we'd gone in 3, 4 or 5 down - what second half would we have had to witness then??

If Jose himself admitted he didn't change much at half time, what the fuck do we attribute the first half to? Were they executing a good gameplan badly, or was it a bad gameplan to start off with?

If the players have always had it in them, why the fiddly fuck have they not shown it for most of the season?

Who is the real United? The side scoring 4 goals in most games for the first 10 games, or playing like strangers for the next 20? We can't equally be good enough to beat City away yet not be good enough to beat Sevilla at home. What is that down to?

Team selections notwithstanding. Our recent games are:
Scousers H (incredible first half, terrible 2nd half)
Chelsea H - (1-0 down, 2-1 up)
Palace A (2-0 down to win 3-2)
City A

Is this the sign of giant slowly reawakening, or a lazy team rousing themselves for the big occasions. Is there such a problem of attitude that they can only do it when the chips are down and they really need to?

Answers on a postcard.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem that has had reds arguing with reds all season.

glass half full = we have improved and we are better than we were, and it will improve
glass half empty = we are still miles off city and only look better because dippers and arsenal and chelsea are poor, and the football is so shite it's no better, win when we play so shite is not the utd way.


sometimes the best displays are when we slacken off the tactics that jose employs, when he plays so pragmatically he chokes the attacking nature of our most attacking players.

second half yesterday he seemed to say, "just go fucking play, don't come back in here having let them humilate you" that's hardly tactical genius is it

first half he seemed to play his favoured, hold em tight and don't commit route
he tried
same v palace
same v seville
same v Newcastle away

for my opinion, Jose has the ability to make us a great side, he just has too negative a mindset to allow himself to do it...
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1999



Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what happened yesterday was all of city's own doing. They were impressive in the first half and could/should have had the game won. Instead, they came out in the second half strolling around (remember the o-lay's?).

We got a break and took full advantage of the momentum it created. city were far too slow to react, I doubt they could believe what had just happened.

At half time I'd have been happy to have Smalling, Pogba and Sanchez off the wage bill in May, fuck the transfer fees.
Within a 2nd half 15 minute spell, Smalling and Pogba had scored three excellent goals and Sanchez had put in two undefendable deliveries. What the fuck do I know?
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which ever way we look at it, half full or half empty, both arguments are completely valid.

We are currently the 2nd best team in the league on points but also the worst of the best four/five in style. The money we've spent also puts an added pressure/expectation on us.

We've been so far short of where we could be. I think Jose's fear of losing and resulting negativity is holding us back, but it has also got us second in the league with a points tally that would likely challenge for the title in any normal season.

Since the Seville game I've been glass half empty. Recent results, where we've had no choice but to go for it, have given me enough to think Jose would get more out of the players and far more from supporters (after all, we feed off what we see on the pitch) if the shackles were to come off.
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 1465

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Since the Seville game I've been glass half empty. Recent results, where we've had no choice but to go for it, have given me enough to think Jose would get more out of the players and far more from supporters (after all, we feed off what we see on the pitch) if the shackles were to come off.


Exactly. And that's been something we've seen ever since Fergie left. Whether it's Moyes, van Gaal or Mourinho, our team only look easy on the eye when they've got a goal (or two) and a bit of confidence behind them. Playing defensively makes this much more unlikely, filters to the fans, and IMO is criminal when you've got this much talent at your disposal.

If Mourinho wants to keep his job we've gotta start going at teams, come what may. That's what the fans want, and something I think we should be proud of.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stig wrote:
I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.


^^ Nail. On. Head ^^

Get this sorted over the Summer and we will be a different team. We have to defend in numbers as we don’t have faith in our back four. All great teams start with a solid back four, we haven’t had one of those for over 4 years if we’re honest.
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Stig wrote:
I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.


^^ Nail. On. Head ^^

Get this sorted over the Summer and we will be a different team. We have to defend in numbers as we don’t have faith in our back four. All great teams start with a solid back four, we haven’t had one of those for over 4 years if we’re honest.


Hmmm that might be the Everest of optimism there but we'll see...

Considering some of his signings so far (including CB Lindelof) the idea of giving him hundreds of millions to blow again this summer sends chills down my spine.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Stig wrote:
I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.


^^ Nail. On. Head ^^

Get this sorted over the Summer and we will be a different team. We have to defend in numbers as we don’t have faith in our back four. All great teams start with a solid back four, we haven’t had one of those for over 4 years if we’re honest.


Hmmm that might be the Everest of optimism there but we'll see...

Considering some of his signings so far (including CB Lindelof) the idea of giving him hundreds of millions to blow again this summer sends chills down my spine.


Hmmmm that might be the Challenger Deep of pessimism but we’ll see... 😜
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit of both.

Our central defence (or our defence as a whole) is no worse than anyone's in the PL. Certainly it isn't worse than City's. The playing out is a cultural (nurture rather than nature) thing. City didn't do it effectively if much at all before Pep. He hasn't changed much back there other than the culture.

United beat them on Saturday because they had to stop hiding. There are some very good players there and they needed to appreciate you don't wave when you're drowning. You start making headway.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jackl". There are some very good players there and they needed to appreciate you don't wave when you're drowning. You start making headway.[/quote]

This is too cryptic or poetic for me. Please can you explain in cobble stones type of language.

Thanks.

A. Pleb.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 2419
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Stig wrote:
I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.


^^ Nail. On. Head ^^

Get this sorted over the Summer and we will be a different team. We have to defend in numbers as we don’t have faith in our back four. All great teams start with a solid back four, we haven’t had one of those for over 4 years if we’re honest.

Rojo/Jones seemed a decent partnership. Rojo/Bailiey, Lindlehof/Bailiey, Blind??? Without meaning to scapegoat, Smalling does seem to be at the centre of many of our conceded goals yet he is always on the teamsheet.

One area where I think we need to look... our fullbacks. Are they really good enough? They don't do to bad, but I think we need an upgrade.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3665

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Stig wrote:
I think that a lot of the approach revolves around him having zero trust in his centre backs, either with or without the ball.


^^ Nail. On. Head ^^

Get this sorted over the Summer and we will be a different team. We have to defend in numbers as we don’t have faith in our back four. All great teams start with a solid back four, we haven’t had one of those for over 4 years if we’re honest.

Rojo/Jones seemed a decent partnership. Rojo/Bailiey, Lindlehof/Bailiey, Blind??? Without meaning to scapegoat, Smalling does seem to be at the centre of many of our conceded goals yet he is always on the teamsheet.

One area where I think we need to look... our fullbacks. Are they really good enough? They don't do to bad, but I think we need an upgrade.


I think Smalling must have some naked pictures of Jose as I think he's the third highest player in the number of appearances this season, behind DDG and Matic. Shocked

OK, so Rojo, Bailiey and Jones have had long spells out injured, as has Blind. Lindlehof has not adapted as quickly as we would have hoped, so I'm hoping Smalling has been lucky rather than deserving to get so many games. I just don't think Smalling has improved, if anything he'd regressed, he is neither a cultured defender (like Rio) or a "you shall not pass" defender (like Vidic). He is however the only defender that we have that provides any goal threat from corners / set pieces, which is a surprise given how bad he is at defending them!
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jose has never given Blind a sniff - in common with most of the LVG signings (e.g Herrera, Martial and Shaw). If he wanted to play out from the back Daley would be a good option.

Smalling is very one-footed (he has improved this slightly). I agree he is not top drawer but he is as good as most in the PL. He lacks composure and usually needs to put his foot through the ball and clear his lines. Jose is clearly happy with that.

Jones is a good player but he needs to be inoculated against the panic virus. Once he catches it he's a headless chicken.

Neither of those two is the greatest communicator so they need to be with someone else. I have hopes for Lindelof, have always liked Rojo. Bailly is excellent when fit. Daley has seldom let us down. As a group there is enough material already there to fashion a decent defensive back line and the stats bear that out.

To me the defence isn't the major problem except for that tendency to panic and I think that is about confidence. United look better when Herrera, Pogba and Matic play in a three. The back five get all the support they need then. I am not sure why Herrera has been left out in the cold this season (his injury period excepted) but there was a story early doors that he couldn't play with Matic. Not so. It only needed time. I think he and Mata would be great losses if they are shown the door at the end of this season.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
Jose has never given Blind a sniff - in common with most of the LVG signings (e.g Herrera, Martial and Shaw). If he wanted to play out from the back Daley would be a good option.

Smalling is very one-footed (he has improved this slightly). I agree he is not top drawer but he is as good as most in the PL. He lacks composure and usually needs to put his foot through the ball and clear his lines. Jose is clearly happy with that.

Jones is a good player but he needs to be inoculated against the panic virus. Once he catches it he's a headless chicken.

Neither of those two is the greatest communicator so they need to be with someone else. I have hopes for Lindelof, have always liked Rojo. Bailly is excellent when fit. Daley has seldom let us down. As a group there is enough material already there to fashion a decent defensive back line and the stats bear that out.

To me the defence isn't the major problem except for that tendency to panic and I think that is about confidence. United look better when Herrera, Pogba and Matic play in a three. The back five get all the support they need then. I am not sure why Herrera has been left out in the cold this season (his injury period excepted) but there was a story early doors that he couldn't play with Matic. Not so. It only needed time. I think he and Mata would be great losses if they are shown the door at the end of this season.


Blind is a gifted footballer and he's rarely let himself down, but a centre-back he isn't and his presence puts us under pressure as the opposition target his lack of pace and height - he usually does well though. I'm not sure what his best position his, he's bit like Jordi Cruyff in the sense that he doesn't seem to have a position to call his own but is clearly technically gifted, as a result he'd destined to be a utility player, which in turn will impact his appearances. He is calm under pressure though.

Is Blind still injured?
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