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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
I can't see the fuss on a number of fronts. I don't even know what Jose is moaning about
so to clarify you are 100% happy with the squad, manager, results, league position last season and overall style of football currently being played?

Jackl wrote:
The team is already there - Frankly I have never thought the back 4 or 5 to be as bad as is made out by some on here
so Luke Shaw, Chris Smalling, Phil Jones & Matteo Darmian are all good, high quality defenders, that should be playing champions league football & internationally and given the chance you sign them again as they've offered value for money as well as obvious quality?

It's abundantly evident that when we "park the bus" we are able to get 0-0's and from time to time even nick a 1-0 but when we try to play anything like a slightly expansive or attacking game we are let down by one of these culprits making an individual error.

Jackl wrote:
I think a middle 3 of Matic, Pogba and Fred should satisfy anyone (with a back up of Herrera, Pereira and Fellaini not being too bad imho).
Are you asking or telling? What answer would you expect from a Barca fan or a Real fan or a City fan for that matter? In what universe are the 6 players you described able to satisfy a club whose stated ambition is to win the league and try to champions of Europe? Fellaini was available for free & yet he resigned for us, hardly people queing to take him off our hands, Pereira is wholly unproven & inexperienced. Fred is a risk, maybe a one worth taking but again largely unproven at the highest level.


Jackl wrote:
The team might not win the league this season but it should be good enough to challenge. I suspect they are more likely to be in the top 4 than fighting relegation.
I tend to agree with you on this but the gap is growing and that gap will start to include other clubs too. This season I see us struggling with Spurs for 4th (they also haven't invested yet) We are nowhere near city or vermin.

I'm intrigued though by the idea that starting a season with the aim of finishing in the top 4 being acceptable? We should always want to win and should always try win. We should not always expect to win.

Like you I am old enough to have seen United when they were rubbish, I have no desire to return to that and given where we were in 2011 having won the CL in 07-08 and then gone on to finish runners up twice after in rapid succession, where we are now......despite having spent £600m since SAF left is nothing short of a total disgrace. Anyone claiming any different is in denial.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm intrigued though by the idea that starting a season with the aim of finishing in the top 4 being acceptable? We should always want to win and should always try win. We should not always expect to win.

^^^^^^^^
THIS , with fucking nobs on

we should also want to win by playing the right way , not grinding out fucking draws in the hope of nicking a winner.
vermin have won fuck all, but the football they play makes us look like Stoke , and for Man Utd this is unacceptable .

by november , it'll be more of the same i fear , and the same reds will be calling us "spoilt " because we want to see some flair when we are only 12 points behind city ... Rolling Eyes

to those saying "we havent kicked a ball , wait and see"

well let's wait and see,

but doing the same thing over and over ,again and again and expecting a different result is a cliche often used to describe something.........................now what was it now?!!!
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:

Win / Win?


Not a win/win for me.

The only 'win'is to be challenging for titles, playing decent football with Jose. If Jose fails to do this, or at least improves on last season, and ends up sacked it's another year wasted. We have to start all over again. Our younger players will be a year older without moving forward (the development of the likes of rashford has stalled imo). It's nearly £300m spend on players a new manager might not want. It's another year of a new manager feeding his ideas to the players...
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa! I haven't the time to read all that yet, never mind deal with it. I will get back to you.
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only one question you have to ask....would Pep, Klopp or even Pochettino have done better with our squad? I think we all know the answer.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee wrote:
There is only one question you have to ask....would Pep, Klopp or even Pochettino have done better with our squad? I think we all know the answer.


Herein lies the rub. There is no evidence that Klopp or Pochettino would have done better. Jose has 2 trophies since joining United, Klopp and Pochettino have zero and have been at their clubs longer. Would we play more entertaining football? Probably. Would it be more successful? Impossible to say.

Pep is the exception, he’s won the league.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
Jackl wrote:
I can't see the fuss on a number of fronts. I don't even know what Jose is moaning about
so to clarify you are 100% happy with the squad, manager, results, league position last season and overall style of football currently being played?

No, on all counts and I don't think it follows from my comment anyway. 100% happiness is hard to attain at any time. I came somewhere near in football terms in May 1999. I imagine Nic came somewhere close in May 2018 but it will have been tempered by the United and Dippers results. I see the happiness factor therefore as something of a sliding scale and, yes, I am generally satisfied but far from ecstatic.

Jackl wrote:
The team is already there - Frankly I have never thought the back 4 or 5 to be as bad as is made out by some on here
so Luke Shaw, Chris Smalling, Phil Jones & Matteo Darmian are all good, high quality defenders, that should be playing champions league football & internationally and given the chance you sign them again as they've offered value for money as well as obvious quality?

It's abundantly evident that when we "park the bus" we are able to get 0-0's and from time to time even nick a 1-0 but when we try to play anything like a slightly expansive or attacking game we are let down by one of these culprits making an individual error.

Well, at least 3 of the 4 you mention are not first choice, probably all 4 now. They are all internationals. My view of them is they are decent players, not Ferdinand, Vidic or Evra but good back up. Would I grieve if any of them left? I doubt it. I would prefer say Varane but of the 12 or so defenders we actually have I would like to see Tuanzebe and Fosu-Mensah given a go as the back up boys. I can imagine however that this might not assist the instant success which, from the end of this post, you deem our entitlement.

We don't need to park the bus. That is definitely a confidence and coaching thing.

Jackl wrote:
I think a middle 3 of Matic, Pogba and Fred should satisfy anyone (with a back up of Herrera, Pereira and Fellaini not being too bad imho).
Are you asking or telling? What answer would you expect from a Barca fan or a Real fan or a City fan for that matter? In what universe are the 6 players you described able to satisfy a club whose stated ambition is to win the league and try to champions of Europe? Fellaini was available for free & yet he resigned for us, hardly people queing to take him off our hands, Pereira is wholly unproven & inexperienced. Fred is a risk, maybe a one worth taking but again largely unproven at the highest level.

Fred is unproven but he interested Pep as well as Jose. I think as far as purchases go he will help the cause and make that a relatively formidable midfield if they can play together. This shouldn't really be a big "if" and we will have to wait and see.


Jackl wrote:
The team might not win the league this season but it should be good enough to challenge. I suspect they are more likely to be in the top 4 than fighting relegation.
I tend to agree with you on this but the gap is growing and that gap will start to include other clubs too. This season I see us struggling with Spurs for 4th (they also haven't invested yet) We are nowhere near city or vermin.

I don't think we are as far off as you think and we shall simply have to differ on this.

I'm intrigued though by the idea that starting a season with the aim of finishing in the top 4 being acceptable? We should always want to win and should always try win. We should not always expect to win.

I don't think I have suggested this should be the aim. I have merely looked at the reality of the situation. If you fall off a cliff in the non-Disney world you don't trampoline back to the top. You have to claw your way back bit by bit.

Like you I am old enough to have seen United when they were rubbish, I have no desire to return to that and given where we were in 2011 having won the CL in 07-08 and then gone on to finish runners up twice after in rapid succession, where we are now......despite having spent £600m since SAF left is nothing short of a total disgrace. Anyone claiming any different is in denial.


There is a difference between denial and acceptance of the fact there is no magic wand. Most of this seems to me aimed at Jose and I have already prefaced my post with the statement that I can't see what he is moaning about. I have also said this is a make or break season for him. I don't know which way it will go but I do know that in 2104 we were 7th and in 2018 we were 2nd. The last time I looked that was going in the right direction so I think he deserves his 3rd year. Do I want to see better football? Of course I would like to see more of the City away than the Sevilla at home.
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Jackl



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Dee wrote:
There is only one question you have to ask....would Pep, Klopp or even Pochettino have done better with our squad? I think we all know the answer.


Herein lies the rub. There is no evidence that Klopp or Pochettino would have done better. Jose has 2 trophies since joining United, Klopp and Pochettino have zero and have been at their clubs longer. Would we play more entertaining football? Probably. Would it be more successful? Impossible to say.

Pep is the exception, he’s won the league.


I doubt Pep would have taken on the squad Jose inherited in 2015. He is not a team builder. He really needs the building blocks there and then he works his magic, which definitely improves players. The media would not have given him that chance at United. The way they hounded him at City made me think he'd be applying for the part in The Fugitive. He may well have cracked at United.

As for the other two, I think they could do a job but it was too early for Poch and Klopp would have needed at least as much time as he has taken up the road. That's five years and counting.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've made a habit of long posts recently, I'll try to keep this one shorter.

Jose traditionally has a very solid back four with a screening midfielder in front and a large robust & dependable keeper behind.

Think back to the early days at Chelsea, 2005-2008 period, Cech in net, Johnson, Del Horno, Ferreira, Terry, Carvalho, Huth & Gallas as a group of defenders. Essien & Makelele as the screening midfielders. The full backs knew when to and when not to push forward, only one at one time ever, thus leaving the central defenders, one full back and the screening midfielder as cover. One of the centre halves can usually play a bit and passes the ball well out of defence.

This gave them an unbelievably strong platform to build off. It didn't mean that they were boring though, in fact they scored 3 or more 11 times in the league in 2006/07 and finished with a goal difference of +50 (they managed +57 the season before)

The solid platform meant they could go forward in numbers and with confidence, Lampard played an entirely free role, relieved of any defensive duties at all he was always up and around Drogba creating, scoring and generally being a threat.

They got the ball wide, early to either one of the full backs or their wingers; Duff, Robben, Cole, Wright Phillips. The wide players then looked to hit Drogba.

Drogba, usually playing with his back to goal, like a 'pivot' in basketball, always had options; either A) flick it on knowing that the wide player on the other flank would have come across to make up the extra attacker. B)knock it down with Lampard coming onto the ball C) bring it down himself turn and have a shot. The wide players could also choose to not hit Drogba and use the advanced full back to overlap and drag a cross back the box again to the likes of Lampard or Ballack.

It made them hard to defend against, they had movement, options and variety but all of it came from the solidity and discipline at the back.

The reason that Jose is struggling to get the same sort of performance out of United isn't because of Lukaku (Drogba) it isn't because of Pogba (Lampard) it isn't a lack of wide players Rashford, Mata, Martial can all play that wide forward role. We are struggling because we don't have the stability in the back four. The full backs are simply not intelligent and disciplined enough and the central defenders just aren't good enough either as defenders or footballers.

Yes we could always do with another wide option, yes we've gone out and got another screening option with Fred but we need some serious work on our back four, I don't think any of them are good enough, they're ok most of the time but not brilliant, not Irwin, Neville, Stam, Vidic, Evra, Pallister good and that's what we need.

PS I was kidding about keeping it short.
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dark-shade-of-red



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
I've made a habit of long posts recently, I'll try to keep this one shorter.

Jose traditionally has a very solid back four with a screening midfielder in front and a large robust & dependable keeper behind.

Think back to the early days at Chelsea, 2005-2008 period, Cech in net, Johnson, Del Horno, Ferreira, Terry, Carvalho, Huth & Gallas as a group of defenders. Essien & Makelele as the screening midfielders. The full backs knew when to and when not to push forward, only one at one time ever, thus leaving the central defenders, one full back and the screening midfielder as cover. One of the centre halves can usually play a bit and passes the ball well out of defence.

This gave them an unbelievably strong platform to build off. It didn't mean that they were boring though, in fact they scored 3 or more 11 times in the league in 2006/07 and finished with a goal difference of +50 (they managed +57 the season before)

The solid platform meant they could go forward in numbers and with confidence, Lampard played an entirely free role, relieved of any defensive duties at all he was always up and around Drogba creating, scoring and generally being a threat.

They got the ball wide, early to either one of the full backs or their wingers; Duff, Robben, Cole, Wright Phillips. The wide players then looked to hit Drogba.

Drogba, usually playing with his back to goal, like a 'pivot' in basketball, always had options; either A) flick it on knowing that the wide player on the other flank would have come across to make up the extra attacker. B)knock it down with Lampard coming onto the ball C) bring it down himself turn and have a shot. The wide players could also choose to not hit Drogba and use the advanced full back to overlap and drag a cross back the box again to the likes of Lampard or Ballack.

It made them hard to defend against, they had movement, options and variety but all of it came from the solidity and discipline at the back.

The reason that Jose is struggling to get the same sort of performance out of United isn't because of Lukaku (Drogba) it isn't because of Pogba (Lampard) it isn't a lack of wide players Rashford, Mata, Martial can all play that wide forward role. We are struggling because we don't have the stability in the back four. The full backs are simply not intelligent and disciplined enough and the central defenders just aren't good enough either as defenders or footballers.

Yes we could always do with another wide option, yes we've gone out and got another screening option with Fred but we need some serious work on our back four, I don't think any of them are good enough, they're ok most of the time but not brilliant, not Irwin, Neville, Stam, Vidic, Evra, Pallister good and that's what we need.

PS I was kidding about keeping it short.



We do not need work on our back four. At the very least, Jose should not be so obsessed with creating the perfect back four, when we conceded just one more goal than Ciddy last season.

We scored 38 less than Ciddy. That is where the problem lies. A fairly obvious problem is Ciddy andScouse have evolved and are scoring for fun.

That is why the dippers reached the CL final and Ciddy won the PL.

Bailly and Lindelof are more than capable of evolving into a solid partnership. Valencia/Dalot should be sound enough at full-back and Shaw, if he ever gets a chance, will eventually be a fine full-back.
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:02 pm
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Dee



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoo - how dare you miss out Bruce, when we all love him for his two majestic headers against Sheff Wed in '93? Wink

DSOR - Zoo maybe right in that Jose isn't comfortable in letting the forward players 'off the leash' until he knows he has the right back five and holding players to cope. Personally, I think Valencia is past it and hasn't got the legs to do the job the manager wants in this system. He rarely beats his man going forward and can get caught out of position. I love the bloke and he's been a fantastic player for us, but I would have preferred to have Dalot replace him sooner but at 19 this isn't going to happen.
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dark-shade-of-red



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee wrote:
Zoo - how dare you miss out Bruce, when we all love him for his two majestic headers against Sheff Wed in '93? Wink

DSOR - Zoo maybe right in that Jose isn't comfortable in letting the forward players 'off the leash' until he knows he has the right back five and holding players to cope. Personally, I think Valencia is past it and hasn't got the legs to do the job the manager wants in this system. He rarely beats his man going forward and can get caught out of position. I love the bloke and he's been a fantastic player for us, but I would have preferred to have Dalot replace him sooner but at 19 this isn't going to happen.



I understand that theory, but we still conceded only 1 less than the current champions unfortunately. If the defence is good enough to keep up with the best in the league, then the forwards should be good enough to be set free to attack.

I feel he doesn't trust the attackers more than the defenders.

Jose is the constant in all of this.
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark-shade-of-red wrote:
Dee wrote:
Zoo - how dare you miss out Bruce, when we all love him for his two majestic headers against Sheff Wed in '93? Wink

DSOR - Zoo maybe right in that Jose isn't comfortable in letting the forward players 'off the leash' until he knows he has the right back five and holding players to cope. Personally, I think Valencia is past it and hasn't got the legs to do the job the manager wants in this system. He rarely beats his man going forward and can get caught out of position. I love the bloke and he's been a fantastic player for us, but I would have preferred to have Dalot replace him sooner but at 19 this isn't going to happen.



I understand that theory, but we still conceded only 1 less than the current champions unfortunately. If the defence is good enough to keep up with the best in the league, then the forwards should be good enough to be set free to attack.

I feel he doesn't trust the attackers more than the defenders.

Jose is the constant in all of this.


After tonight's performance, I concur. How can he not trust Lukaku, Sanchez, Rashford, Martial! It's bordering on the disgraceful how he is setting up our team. And excluding Martial from the squad, bloody petty.
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Jackl



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think much can be read into pre-season with a lot of quality still missing.

Nor do I think 13 years ago or even 8 is relevant to today. One could make a case for starting in 2009 because we are still in that phase. That is not all conquering is shown by Pep's later record before he washed up on the Ship Canal. He seems to be reprising it here having probably failed in Germany (in comparison with his predecessor) so we will have to see how that works out.

Zoo has identified one problem with Jose which troubles me and that relates to Robben. A slightly troublesome and perhaps troubled individual who was not his signing but one of the outstanding players of his team and one of the true greats of the last 15 years. Dee is right to raise Martial in the same context (although he will be lucky to be that good).

There is no doubt in my mind that Jose's future at our club will ultimately turn on how he handles these difficult but potentially great players. I agree the evidence to date has left the jury out.

I still think the back four is the last area we really need to strengthen.
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
I don't think much can be read into pre-season with a lot of quality still missing.

Nor do I think 13 years ago or even 8 is relevant to today. One could make a case for starting in 2009 because we are still in that phase. That is not all conquering is shown by Pep's later record before he washed up on the Ship Canal. He seems to be reprising it here having probably failed in Germany (in comparison with his predecessor) so we will have to see how that works out.

Zoo has identified one problem with Jose which troubles me and that relates to Robben. A slightly troublesome and perhaps troubled individual who was not his signing but one of the outstanding players of his team and one of the true greats of the last 15 years. Dee is right to raise Martial in the same context (although he will be lucky to be that good).

There is no doubt in my mind that Jose's future at our club will ultimately turn on how he handles these difficult but potentially great players. I agree the evidence to date has left the jury out.

I still think the back four is the last area we really need to strengthen.


I understand this, but it is how he sets the team up to play. As you say, we have a lot of quality missing, then he has nothing to lose, so why not send your team out to have a go?
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