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north country boy



Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 2800
Location: in the area

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's gone full-throttle Mourinho now... playing Herrera as a 3rd CB to make a point at the expense of winning the game, basically biting off his nose to spite his face.

Hard to see a way back from here now. Woodward & Jose have conspired to create an absolute mess on the pitch, bar Lingard & Shaw (and maybe Fred) no player was really up to it last night.

Smalling and Jones still not good enough, as has been the case for years, and Lindelof has turned into the new Willem Prunier. Nearly felt sorry for him last night, as Carragher said he's clearly out of his depth.

Only way Mourinho can turn this around is if he swallows his pride and starts picking teams to win games instead of trying to prove a point to the board. I think we all know the chances of that happening.

I reckon he'll be given until the CL group stage is underway, if things start going wrong there he'll be gone. I hope he's praying for the easiest possible draw
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not sure Jose was making a point with Herrera’s position, I think it was tactical and to stop Dele Alli as he’d done a job superbly on him previously. Alli comes in from the left, I’m sure that’s why he went with that approach. I may be wrong, but I don’t think Jose would sacrifice a game/win to make this point, he doesn’t need too, it’s self-evident that Jones, Smalling and Lindelof are a collective bag-of-shite. Don’t worry though, we’ve got Rojo to come back in and save the day. Wink Rolling Eyes
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I confess I thought the board jinx might puncture some of those early predictions but didn't see it as all doom and gloom. Apart from the possible Moura pen, no real defensive problems in the first half. I think that was dubious but wouldn't have been surprised to see it given.

Lukaku should have scored from a worst Spurs defensive lapse than any we showed and we could easily have been a couple up with the pressure except for some wayward shooting and some last ditch defending.

Second half and Kane's header is what he does and is very good at. It was their first real effort. Moura's first came from an unfortunate ricochet. His second was the sort of thing that happens when you are chasing the game and piling on pressure. It was also the kind of thing which happens when the opposition begins to realise the luck is running their way. Again wit as slightly lucky as Smalling's tackle ricocheted back off his leg and left him through.

Ours was a very defensive formation. There were only two recognised strikers rather than three and Herrera and Matic were charged with being the extra man in defence when needed. It was therefore very elastic and it could convert into attack much more quickly. I think that was good and I didn't really see it as Jose proving a point. If Matic had been at the races it might have worked.

The failure to score was a bigger problem and a lot more energy and determination was needed at the sharp end. Who did well? Shaw was our motm. Who did okay? Fred showed some bite and mobility, Herrera when he was on, Lingard in patches but the fluency was missing up front. Lukaku was really poor and Pogba easily frustrated.

All in all Spurs got lucky but they have the quality up front. Most defences would struggle against Eriksen, Moura, Kane and Alli. We could and probably should have bought three of them back in the day Moyes could have got Eriksen for a snip, LVG should have come back from MKD with Alli. Moura was available at the beginning of last season and SAF fancied him a few years back.

Meanwhile, Jose has five CB's plus kids. He needs to get two and keep on playing them until he can add to the pool. The "strikers" need to start thinking both in and out of the box. There are six quality players up there.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Southern Red wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Southern Red wrote:
Pissed off!!! Not because we lost. Tonight was just one of those nights. We deserved so much more. I'm pissed off because that was the level of performance I know this squad can deliver. A level of performance we deserve to and should see every week. A performance that entertains and more often than not would get the win.


But proves once again that our defence, when not protected by a defensively minded midfield, will ship goals like they’re going out of fashion. Never a 3-0 game but that’s where we are at present. Ed Woodward has plenty to answer for as our centre-backs can’t be relied upon, which hinders us going forward with confidence.


I've never argued the defence wasn't weak. But it's no excuse for losing to teams like Brighton, WBA and huddersfield. When playing against the top 4/6 I have no problem with being a bit more defensive.

Jose seems to have his get out of jail free card now. Even the players have brought into it. Yet this same defence had the second best (?) defensive record last season. We didn't concede to many under LVG either. We've also got Fred to bolster the defensive side of things. If Jose is a good coach that defence would have improved, despite its obvious limitations. Instead it is getting worse.


If you truly believe that the reason we shipped so few goals under LvG and Jose (until so far this season) was to do with defensive excellence then you’ve been watching different football to me.

Under LvG we played with no flair and typically an 8-man defensive unit that was drilled to keep possession at all costs. One of those costs was not playing the ball forward.

Jose has adopted a very similar style, when he’s changed it we’ve shipped goals. In fairness to Jose he has been more forward thinking than LvG.

Neither coach wanted to play this way is my guess, but chose too based on the personnel available. Prepare to watch United Park the bus in the next game, back to basics, may get a much needed result but will be boring as fuck to watch - which is not what we want either.


Don't get me wrong, I know why we play so negatively and that's the reason we haven't shipped goals over recent years. BUT is that defence the worst in the league? No. I'd argue it's about mid-table level.

When we look at our attack (perhaps I have too much faith in it), Lukaku, a 25+ goals a season striker. Martial and Rashford, who showed great potential under LVG and now stagnated. Sanchez, arsenals best player a season or 2 ago, Pobga, NFT. Mata, who was Chelsea's best player before Jose rejoined them... our attack should be one of the best in the league. And if anyone wanted to argue about the ability of any of those players, the argument for another CB is lost. We'd need a new team. Not a centre back. And would be very concerning considering how much we've spent in recent years.

When playing any of our top 4 rivals I expect us to be defensive. It's boring, I hate watching it and I moan like fuck about it, but I get it. But when we are playing Brighton we might lose, but they should never look better than us.


Where to start mate, you’ve created so many strawman arguments there.

1. You agree we play negatively because of our defence - that’s all I’ve said, so we’re in agreement.

2. Nobody said our defence was the worst in the league, it’s just not anywhere near as good as our rivals at home or in Europe. No matter what coaches do you can’t polish a turd, you can’t even roll our turd in glitter to make it look better. Our CBs are simply not good enough. Watching Alderweireld keep Lukaku quiet was painful to watch, as was seeing Maguire score at the weekend - both would have made a huge difference.

3. There is nothing wrong with our forwards, we’re a bit light on the right-hand side but it will never express itself if it’s a) protecting a weak back line and b) shit scared of losing the ball and relying on the CBs to cover.

4. Nobody expects glorious football against our main rivals, but we do expect our defence to stand steady against a 35 year old journeyman at Brighton and for United to look bothered, play with energy and imagination.


I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more a rant at the situation we find ourselves in.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SR, I certainly understand your frustration at the situation we find ourselves in but you surely must agree that, if United approached every game the way they approached this one, then there would be little cause for complaint. We would play better football, the confidence would start to flow and the strikers (and midfield) would score more.

It was a step in the right direction and it would be unfortunate if we abandoned this approach because of a freak result against Spurs.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are we at a point now where when we lose it's a freak result?
it reminded me of under Moyes , when we had like 23536 crosses and still didnt score , Stick fellaini on and wack it in the box.


This isn’t another anti jose rant, well maybe it is ?
I wasn’t angry last night or pissed off, I actually wasn’t even surprised , and today that is what fucking angered me …. Why the fuck should we sit back and accept this shit because jose says he hasn’t the players he wanted….

are we now looking at this issue and getting lost in the point jose wants us to focus on, the lack of centre backs this season, when in truth he has had plenty of time to build the squad he wants and he has kept 2 centre backs which he has kept faith in ,and bought 2 new ones to bed in, when in truth he has simply bought shite to add to add to shite

Count the 6 months where it was kept a secret , but basically he has had nearly 3 years to buy the players he wants to create his side, he has had hundreds of millions of pounds given to him , and he has had 5 transfer windows in which to create the squad he needs.
If you listen to “the special one” he acts as if he has had one transfer window and been let down so badly he cannot possibly compete.

It’s taken Klopp longer , and in more time he has won less I know, but it's hard not to look where they are now in comparison to where we appear to be .

It took Pep basically one season of big investment to get to a point where he only needs tweaks . and City now make us (on the pitch ) look a million miles behind..

Conte came into England, took a side Jose had seemingly damaged beyond repair, bought a couple of un inspiring workers and won a fucking title in his first term,


Actually fuck it, this is a jose rant, it’s no one else’s fault but his. he has had the time, he has had the money, he has bought the players , but he looks like a busted flush, a tactical dinosaur in the modern game, a man who’s previously lucky tactic seemed to be, bore the opposition and batter them with a ram of a striker.


a manager who was so obsessed with finishing second he played for a fucking point away against west ham, when we had a game left and didn't really give a fuck about second or third...


The last few months of last season, and the pre season and now the start of this season we look shocking, lacking leadership ,a style of play, a plan B, a tactical solution to crack a side, discipline, quality and any semblance of flair
Fuck me this is going to be a hard season .
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:


It’s taken Klopp longer , and in more time he has won less I know, but it's hard not to look where they are now in comparison to where we appear to be .

It took Pep basically one season of big investment to get to a point where he only needs tweaks . and City now make us (on the pitch ) look a million miles behind..

Conte came into England, took a side Jose had seemingly damaged beyond repair, bought a couple of un inspiring workers and won a fucking title in his first term,


Actually fuck it, this is a jose rant, it’s no one else’s fault but his. he has had the time, he has had the money, he has bought the players , but he looks like a busted flush, a tactical dinosaur in the modern game, a man who’s previously lucky tactic seemed to be, bore the opposition and batter them with a ram of a striker.


a manager who was so obsessed with finishing second he played for a fucking point away against west ham, when we had a game left and didn't really give a fuck about second or third...


The last few months of last season, and the pre season and now the start of this season we look shocking, lacking leadership ,a style of play, a plan B, a tactical solution to crack a side, discipline, quality and any semblance of flair
Fuck me this is going to be a hard season .


It has taken slightly longer than this, as the planning began as soon as City hired Txiki Begiristain.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
SR, I certainly understand your frustration at the situation we find ourselves in but you surely must agree that, if United approached every game the way they approached this one, then there would be little cause for complaint. We would play better football, the confidence would start to flow and the strikers (and midfield) would score more.

It was a step in the right direction and it would be unfortunate if we abandoned this approach because of a freak result against Spurs.


I absolutely agree.

I get the CB argument, but it appears Jose didn't trust his own judgement. Why should Ed? Lindelhof and Bailiey are his players (which I think could work, but it might be a bit messy waiting for it to work). They had a bad game (as did every other player) and they are thrown to the dogs. A better man manager may have shown a bit of faith and stuck with them.

Having said that, its not a reason to be so negative nor lose to 'lesser' teams. It might be the difference between a win/draw/defeat vs 'top 6' opposition, but our record against them isn't a disaster.
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TOFB



Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shambles of a central defense aside, what the fuck is happening with Lukaku? Three sitters missed in as many games. The last two could have lead to us going ahead against Brighton and Spurs. Had we gone ahead in those games, I think we could have been looking at very different results.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody is entitled to a bad games now and then, but Linderlof has exceeded his. He really is poor - and Jose bought him.
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TOFB



Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stig wrote:
Everybody is entitled to a bad games now and then, but Linderlof has exceeded his. He really is poor - and Jose bought him.

Agree. Every manager makes bad signings. How would Pep be faring if he still had Claudio Bravo in goal? At least he was given the opportunity to replace him.
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Dee



Joined: 19 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOFB wrote:
The shambles of a central defense aside, what the fuck is happening with Lukaku? Three sitters missed in as many games. The last two could have lead to us going ahead against Brighton and Spurs. Had we gone ahead in those games, I think we could have been looking at very different results.


My biggest issue with him is that for a man of his size, he has the physical presence of a feather. The system we play requires him to be the fulcrum and bring others into play. He loses possession far too easily which gives the initiative back to the opposition. He has the capability to scare the life out of defenders (not our own), he just needs to continue to work at this aspect of his game.
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Stig



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOFB wrote:
Stig wrote:
Everybody is entitled to a bad games now and then, but Linderlof has exceeded his. He really is poor - and Jose bought him.

Agree. Every manager makes bad signings. How would Pep be faring if he still had Claudio Bravo in goal? At least he was given the opportunity to replace him.


Fair. And SAF bought his share as well.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that Jose bought Lindelof in, but you’ll remember that we were in for him before and didn’t do a deal, talk at the time was about more scouting reports needed on him. From what we’ve seen so far we should still be asking for reports. He’s not up to it, best to cut our losses and move on, or at very least pair him in a back 3 on the right side with an authoritative CB in the middle and a left footed defender on the left. That would be gone Sweden got the best out of him.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

September fixtures: Burnley, Watford, Wolves, West Ham.

Then we hit Jose's self-imposed "contenders" deadline.

Interesting times indeed.
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