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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3627

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Chubby, the comments/reaction isn't about today's game, it's a result of seeing this type of performance become the norm. We may not have lost yesterday (although it felt like it), wolves might be a good team and progressing etc... but the concerning thing is they came and looked our equal, some may argue better, as have many other recently promoted/relegation threatened teams.

We had many games under SAF where we have an off day, but we all knew there would be an adequate response. The players would care. The manager would fume, but all would be kept behind closed doors.


I don’t think some of the players care, some would sooner be elsewhere, some we’d sooner see elsewhere. New players and more money will not fix it, I don’t think a new coach would either.

Teams no longer come to OT beaten, been that way since Moyes. They now come to have a real go at us early on, get a goal then defend as a team and play on the break. This has worked well for a handful of teams but it’s copied by many. The teams that come to play expansive football for 90 minutes are typically beaten, a new dawn is heralded and then we wonder why we revert back to shite football the next game against lesser opposition.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3627

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
Didn't watch yesterday, knew what would happen.

I'll just say this, watching on MOTD this morning and they made reference to SAF being there and the fact that last time we played Wolves he was the manager, like a throw a way line the commentator says "4-1 home win and a 5-0 victory at Molineux"

No further text required.


We also lost at Wolves in SAF’s time, with a truly shocking and abject performance. The difference today is that Wolves are actually good, whereas when they beat SAFs team they were rock bottom of the league and a bag-of-shite, evidenced by our typical results against them that you point out.
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 6746

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the position we are now in. Years of resting on our laurels etc.

The infrastructure is creaking the foundations are cracked .

However the simple fact and the reason for my frustration.

Mourinho is not the man to solve it . He cares about Jose and Jose's record . He would to rather play for a point at west ham so he can say he finished second rather than try to win
Is he creating a new academy , monitoring the youth or reserves. Scouting g for new talent ? I doubt it very much.
The football he serves up is poor.
The structure he is stabilising does not appear any more stable than before he started..
So why do we insist on persisting with him ?

If we need to start and re build, we need a new man. not a dinosaur living on his passed glories.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 3627

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:
I understand the position we are now in. Years of resting on our laurels etc.

The infrastructure is creaking the foundations are cracked .

However the simple fact and the reason for my frustration.

Mourinho is not the man to solve it . He cares about Jose and Jose's record . He would to rather play for a point at west ham so he can say he finished second rather than try to win
Is he creating a new academy , monitoring the youth or reserves. Scouting g for new talent ? I doubt it very much.
The football he serves up is poor.
The structure he is stabilising does not appear any more stable than before he started..
So why do we insist on persisting with him ?

If we need to start and re build, we need a new man. not a dinosaur living on his passed glories.


I agree with you 100% on West Ham and the style of football.

On everything else, such as scouting, academy performance he is not, or shouldn’t be, in charge of that, he should be the beneficiary of it. The reality is there doesn’t appear to be anyone directing it, it’s all occurring in isolation, with no vision or strategy. SAF could create this as it was a different time, there was a manager and a chairman, very little else. The manager of United simply couldn’t do this today, not enough hours in the day.

If we get rid of Jose, which I’m not opposed to in any way, then unless we get some direction as a club then the next coach will fail. I honestly don’t think the coach is the main problem.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed we didn't play badly. Brighton was the only match where we did and that was poor defending in the main aided and abetted by complacency. The latter is too often the case and shows in slow starts, a lack of Intensity and a loss of composure when the game gets rough. These are bigger problems than a lack of quality. They don't appear always and I think we will stand up in big matches. It is hard to put a finger on and is obviously an accumulation of factors. A proper leader in the Keane or Cantona mould would be a start. Not one of the players has that character.

The failure to score enough goals has been our main problem now since 2013. When I referred to it above I was speaking of a generic problem, not one specific to this game. The talent is there. It may not be Rooney and Ronnie or Yorke and Cole but we have an internationally prolific centre forward 5 more high quality internationals. We have one of the best ball playing midfielders in the world and none of other midfielders is a slouch. We have the best goalkeeper in the world too and a competent defence. Money has not been spared but no acquisition from Moyes on has looked like he would have fared well in an SAF team.

The whole is simply not as good as the sum of the parts so it needs that catalyst which joins them up. It could be just the coach although I am reminded it took SAF five years to win a cup and eight to win a league. Another six to win the CL. Although it is arguable that Moyes inherited better than Fergie I am not sure this coach did.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 2391
Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Zoolander wrote:
Didn't watch yesterday, knew what would happen.

I'll just say this, watching on MOTD this morning and they made reference to SAF being there and the fact that last time we played Wolves he was the manager, like a throw a way line the commentator says "4-1 home win and a 5-0 victory at Molineux"

No further text required.


We also lost at Wolves in SAF’s time, with a truly shocking and abject performance. The difference today is that Wolves are actually good, whereas when they beat SAFs team they were rock bottom of the league and a bag-of-shite, evidenced by our typical results against them that you point out.


Are you referring to the game where up till that game we were top of the league and unbeaten and lost 1-0/2-1 or something similar at their place? Yes, we were also shite that day. But you got to put it into context.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a regular complaint about Sir Alex that he would leave good players on the bench and then bring them on in an effort to save a game which had gone pear-shaped. There was another after Keano went of us having no central midfielders even with Scholes and Carrick in there. They won five leagues and got to three European finals but the criticism never ceased.

Chubby's point is well made. It didn't always go to plan and it took a long time the first time to get it right and three years from 2004 to begin the reprise even though most of the team was still there. If another coach could wave a magic wand I would say get him in but right now I'm not a Harry Potter fan.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 5923
Location: Duck Fat City Limits

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby I'm glad you've joined the "need a plan" side.

Been saying for ages that the recruitment, retention, academy and development at United is farcical and SAF is/was part of the problem. It's been going on for the last 6-7 years. He was the last of a dying breed, the "Manager that does everything". Football has moved on and changed, United have not.

SAF should have left us with a legacy that included a change to the set up. A director of football (Ed is great at doing commercial deals, he's a fucking amateur when it comes to football business) a head of recruitment & retention and a proper academy director (not a cushy job for an old player). We talk about football being a business but we don't behave like United is a business.

Change management, business continuity planning all things that the owners/board should have ensured were in place in the run up to SAF going so that we didn't get the drop off that the football world had predicted.

We didn't do that, SAF didn't see to it that it was done, the owners have not ensured that it was done and Woodward has not instigated it yet. We chose not to do it at about the worst possible time because City have such a plan in place and can outbid us for any player they set their mind to. Just look at their academy offering free private education right through to 18 for anyone they sign up at 15. Which parent would decide on United given the choice, when we offer fuck all?

Whether Jose would want to come and be a 1st team coach with all those other "Egos" in place is another matter but if the club want to stop this fall (and it is one) and get back to being genuine contenders not just slip into 4th if we're lucky and win a cup every 3rd year then we need much, much bigger thinking and a proper plan.

Just as an example, Arjen Robben, Leon Goretzka and Benedict Howedes were all available for free this summer. None of them currently play for us and yet I think every single one of us would like to see a decent left sided centre half, a dynamic goal scoring midfielder that runs beyond the forward line and a pacy wide player that can create and score a few. Businesses have plans, those plans include knowing how best to invest money. We've spent £655m since SAF left and not come even close to being champions.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure any of those three was truly available and Goretzka may be the only one who could improve us. He was always going the Bayern route and no doubt he ran down his contract for that precise purpose. However, I wouldn't argue with any part of your assessment of the prevailing amateurism or the need for substantial change in the future.

It is probably more accident than design that we still have decent youngsters. You may even be generous to Sir Alex's tenure to say the problem only emerged 6 or 7 years ago. The idea of repeating 1992 has been a joke since 1993 tbh.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 5923
Location: Duck Fat City Limits

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howedes & Robben waited until the summer to sign any deals, they were clearly looking around. Maybe they were trying to get better deals out of their clubs, Robben stayed at Bayern, I don't blame him. Howedes headed off to Moscow....

I think all 3 were potentially available to a team with a plan, to a team with a proper director of football & head of recruitment, that courted these players. If we put the same effort into these players as we have done obscure youngsters then maybe we'd be better at it?

The thing is these are just examples, there are players out there that aren't happy, players out there coming to the end of their contract, players out there currently going under the RADAR. We have been failing to unearth these gems for far too long.

With regards to the kids, I don't think any United fan really, genuinely believes we'll ever have a class of 92 again, it was a total freak.

We do alright with our youth, except we have started to fall into the classic trap again of not trusting them, not throwing them in so they make that next step and therefore they drop off and fail to achieve the promise.

My complaint is largely the expensive young imports that have failed us 100%. Has any one of the expensive "tapped up" kids pinched from European academies actually playing for us now or threatening to do so?

Pogba was allowed to leave and then bought back at great expense but we'd already gone through a great expense to tap him up and pinch him. Paying for expensive trips over to scout him as well as trips for his family over here, then the wage he was put on (not on apprentice YTS money) it was a major pro-contract from day one, the house his family were put in and he's just one of them.

Vanja Millinkovic-Savic, remember him? Yes he's the brother of Sergej, the talented midfielder we've apparently tried to sign in the summer. Well his brother was poached as a kid but then released, Ron-Robert Zeiler, Gerard Pique, Indy Boonen, Marnick Vermijl, Saidy Janko, Giuseppe Rossi, Tosin Kehinde, Zoran Tosic, Adem Lajajic......I could go on and on.

It has failed miserably, we've spent a fortune travelling round Europe business class to poach these kids, none of whom have added anything to United, many of whom you doubt intended to stay any way (Pique was always going back to Barca). We've paid them well above the going rate, organised jobs, cars and homes for their families and largely ignored the local North West youth, which should have always been our focus. Everton have brought more players through, Southampton are more successful. We had the best ever youth team to come through at any premier league club, proof that United valued and promoted youth we should have built on it and dominated but we didn't plan.

United believed that money and success would always happen.
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Failed to pick up guys like Bale and Ramsey at the same time. You've got Giggs there, you've had Sparky, two of the greatest a sheep-botherer legends, and those guys prefer Spurs and Arsenal.

To be honest, if anything, our year 2000+ youth system has actually ruined some promising careers.

Then you get guys like Maguire. You could see he had talent at Hull so if you think he's a prospect you can get him at £10m or so. So what is it they didn't see until the World Cup when he's suddenly £70m?
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 5923
Location: Duck Fat City Limits

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackl wrote:
Failed to pick up guys like Bale and Ramsey at the same time. You've got Giggs there, you've had Sparky, two of the greatest a sheep-botherer legends, and those guys prefer Spurs and Arsenal.

To be honest, if anything, our year 2000+ youth system has actually ruined some promising careers.

Then you get guys like Maguire. You could see he had talent at Hull so if you think he's a prospect you can get him at £10m or so. So what is it they didn't see until the World Cup when he's suddenly £70m?


Exactly this!

Interestingly on the subject of Ramsey, I used to work with a guy (still mates with him) that went to school with Ramsey, he is 100% a United fan and loves Giggs & Hughes, he went to Arsenal because he felt that they offered him a better chance to play regularly and develop. Says it all really.
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Nicolae



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john smith wrote:


* The infrastructure is creaking the foundations are cracked

* Mourinho is not the man to solve it

* He cares about Jose and Jose's record

* The football he serves up is poor.

* We need a new man. not a dinosaur living on his passed (sic) glories.


By 'eck

Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Jackl



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoo, Ramsey would have been a good fit with Scholes and Carrick and now with Pogba. I know Arsene put the boat out whereas Fergie never met him and would have loaned him back to Cardiff. If he and Bale had come here they would have stayed 15 years. There is a suggestion we are still after both! What a waste!
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Jarzinio



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 841
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mourinho Rolling Eyes
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