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Everton - (and arsenal )
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 6772

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Everton - (and arsenal ) Reply with quote

just a thought for the "we can't get rid of jose " brigade to consider .

Gunners lose a long standing but somewhat stagnant manager
bring in a relatively un known from a lower Spanish division
takes a few games to settle, then starts playing fluid, predominately attacking football, gets the best out of previously disappointing players , Miky T and wellbeck to name but two.

He hasn't spent billions on players he cannot get a tune out of, he has adapted the players he has

wins 12 games in a row and makes them look like a good attractive side.( i did laugh when palace scored though i must admit as i was typing this..)

i know you can argue - he has won fuck all yet ,i agree it's early days ,however i am merely pointing out that he and Conti as examples came in and make this league look a lot easier than Moaning Moureen does.
and if any one says Arsenal haven't beaten a top side in that run, well we lost to Derby on penalties- lost in the league to West ham- Brighton and drew at home to wolves ............and aside from a point at Chelsea i'd say we have been fairly fucking awful in most games ..

I was going to post this after the everton game, however I will estimate a dour game that we may well win, but I expect another disjointed and poor performance .

I genuinely hope I am wrong……..
Crying or Very sad
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there still a "we can't get rid of jose" brigade?
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 5945
Location: Duck Fat City Limits

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
Is there still a "we can't get rid of jose" brigade?


Yes, yes there is.

1 Armoured Division
3 Mechanised Division
16 Air Assault Brigade
3 Commando Brigade
77 IO Brigade
53 We Can't Get Rid of Jose Brigade
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m42her



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 2083

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, Emery won 3 UEFA cups in a row with Sevilla - that's pretty impressive but agree with your sentiment. The rut can be broken quickly.

There's a lot to be said for being patient - we LOVE to hark back to Fergie 89 and how we stuck with him etc etc.

But the thing is, times have changed.

In 89, a season or two of middling performances and finishes wouldn't set you back for multiples of seasons to follow. Now, every season where you're not competing it'll take you even longer to get back. Witness Murdering Scum.

Plus, Fergie was putting structures in place behind the scenes and had to rebuild the whole club. So yes the results weren't coming, but the club was changing.

Is the same happening under Jose?

City, Madrid & Chelsea...3 examples that show ruthlessness that keeps things moving forward in terms of performance/trophies/following a vision (as opposed to ruthlessness without a plan) can be a sustainable approach PROVIDED there's a vision that is being followed at the top.

Jose in or out risks distracting us from the wider issue of trouble way above Jose's head.

FWIW, I don't think Jose isn't the right man for the job...but nor has the situation been helped by the utter gash above him.
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Zoolander



Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all seriousness I don't think the current situation can be paced 100% at Jose's door.

I think those above are 90% of the blame, there is no plan, there was no change management plan for when and if SAF finally retired, shocking really because they are supposed to be all "about the business". The days of a single club manager that does everything and oversees everything are long gone, we still don't have a proper structure in place and this can be seen in our shot gun scatter approach to recruitment and retention.

I think the appointment of Moyes was an unmitigated disaster, he well and truly broke the spell of United being invincible. No longer were teams beaten in the tunnel, no longer did teams fear us, we still haven't recovered from this change in mentality and some players that had played under SAF in his last year/years were suddenly exposed to pressure that they had never known before and their failings were there for all to see.

Oddly I think that had Jose taken over from SAF immediately we wouldn't be where we are now. The football would still be dire, no doubt about that but we'd be nearer challenging.

Having said that I actually think we need a whole new approach for next season, 1st team coach, director of football, head of recruitment, head of academy etc.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emery was hardly an unknown Rolling Eyes

We have owners that don’t care what we win as long as sponsors pay top dollar.

We have a board that failed to back or sack the manager, leaving all in limbo.

We have a manager that doesn’t know his best formation or strongest XI

We have a team that doesn’t know what they’re doing.

We have at least 50% of our players that simply aren’t good enough.

We have fans that are backing the team (admirable) where they should be vocal about all of the above at matches.

No plan, no vision, no progress being made, nothing for anyone to get excited about. Which considering all of the above shouldn’t be at all surprising.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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Location: Haywards Heath

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont disagree with the argument Jose isn't the only problem we have.

But,

He has been given money. Not one of his players have been better than average. Why should he be given more? After the Juve game he said we need to spend to get to that level. Our net spend under jose is far, far higher that that of Juve as well as some of Europe's elite clubs. (My best guess is only city and PSG have a higher net spend?). He has brought defenders. They've been poor. He's brought a right back who looked decent but Jose doesnt seem to fancy him. He brought a defensive minded midfielder but has been warming the bench.

Jose suggested last season was a huge positive, playing up 'his' achievements. He hyped up how great we were. He then turns it on its head and smashes the confidence of our defenders, who played their part in that 'success', to bits by publicly claiming they weren't good enough. He dismantled the supporters hope of improvement before the season had started. The club and supporters were beaten before the season even started because of his selfish negativity. He can complain all he likes about a centre back... it might leave you exposed vs the likes of city, but against the Brighton's, West hams, newcastles (we were fortunate to win) and derby's of this world we have little excuse.

And finally, with regards to Jose, he looks a beaten man. His silly outbursts have been embarrassing. He is stroppy, moody and as a result uninspiring. The bloke still lives in a hotel ffs!

I'd love nothing more than be able to get behind Jose and fight the owners, but his attempts to win this battle fall flat on its face when he cant get the best out of the squad and his signings fail so miserably.

Unfortunately the owners are here to stay, regardless how hard Jose stamps his feet. Our only hope is that we can find a manager who can operate with one hand tied behind his back, like Fergie...
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john smith



Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Posts: 6772

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Southern Red wrote:
I dont disagree with the argument Jose isn't the only problem we have.

But,

He has been given money. Not one of his players have been better than average. Why should he be given more? After the Juve game he said we need to spend to get to that level. Our net spend under jose is far, far higher that that of Juve as well as some of Europe's elite clubs. (My best guess is only city and PSG have a higher net spend?). He has brought defenders. They've been poor. He's brought a right back who looked decent but Jose doesnt seem to fancy him. He brought a defensive minded midfielder but has been warming the bench.

Jose suggested last season was a huge positive, playing up 'his' achievements. He hyped up how great we were. He then turns it on its head and smashes the confidence of our defenders, who played their part in that 'success', to bits by publicly claiming they weren't good enough. He dismantled the supporters hope of improvement before the season had started. The club and supporters were beaten before the season even started because of his selfish negativity. He can complain all he likes about a centre back... it might leave you exposed vs the likes of city, but against the Brighton's, West hams, newcastles (we were fortunate to win) and derby's of this world we have little excuse.

And finally, with regards to Jose, he looks a beaten man. His silly outbursts have been embarrassing. He is stroppy, moody and as a result uninspiring. The bloke still lives in a hotel ffs!

I'd love nothing more than be able to get behind Jose and fight the owners, but his attempts to win this battle fall flat on its face when he cant get the best out of the squad and his signings fail so miserably.

Unfortunately the owners are here to stay, regardless how hard Jose stamps his feet. Our only hope is that we can find a manager who can operate with one hand tied behind his back, like Fergie...



^^^ THIS ^^^ Wink
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoolander wrote:
I think the appointment of Moyes was an unmitigated disaster, he well and truly broke the spell of United being invincible. No longer were teams beaten in the tunnel, no longer did teams fear us, we still haven't recovered from this change in mentality and some players that had played under SAF in his last year/years were suddenly exposed to pressure that they had never known before and their failings were there for all to see.

Oddly I think that had Jose taken over from SAF immediately we wouldn't be where we are now. The football would still be dire, no doubt about that but we'd be nearer challenging.


I agree with this bit, although I find it hard to blame the board for the fact our players have no fluidity, no direction and seemingly have no idea where their teammates are supposed to be (seriously - I watched MOTD this weekend and am convinced that two thirds of the teams in the Prem play better football than us; at least three quarters of em are more organised). That's purely down to the manager (and team) - and I'm genuinely baffled as to what the fuck they actually do in training every day.

I'm not denying the owners are cunts, or the fact we might need a change at the top, a different structure perhaps, but that's not the reason we're languishing in mid-table now. We've easily got the squad for a top four place, and fans starting to blame all and sundry are starting to sound a little Scouse-esque to me.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dave wrote:


We've easily got the squad for a top four place, and fans starting to blame all and sundry are starting to sound a little Scouse-esque to me.


Wow! Great we can be pleased with a top 4 finish! When did our aspirations mirror those at Arsenal? Rolling Eyes

I blame all and sundry because it’s clear all and sundry are to blame and that a top-down re-org and re-think is required.

Definition of insanity is to continue to do the same things repeatedly but expect different results.
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The Dave wrote:


We've easily got the squad for a top four place, and fans starting to blame all and sundry are starting to sound a little Scouse-esque to me.


Wow! Great we can be pleased with a top 4 finish! When did our aspirations mirror those at Arsenal? Rolling Eyes

I blame all and sundry because it’s clear all and sundry are to blame and that a top-down re-org and re-think is required.


Definition of insanity is to continue to do the same things repeatedly but expect different results.


I couldn't give a shit about a top four place, but there's zero reason why this team shouldn't be sitting there comfortably. A top-down structural change might benefit us in the future but it would take years to develop, and it's NOT the reason we're sitting in eighth right now.







[/b]
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dave wrote:

I couldn't give a shit about a top four place, but there's zero reason why this team shouldn't be sitting there comfortably. A top-down structural change might benefit us in the future but it would take years to develop, and it's NOT the reason we're sitting in eighth right now. [/b]


Really? Other teams have invested in the areas they identified as weak, we didn’t and defensively we are mid-table at best, certainly not on a par with any other team with champions league aspirations. That speaks to the disconnect between owners, board and players. Jose will be gone by next season, we will have another manager operating with one or two arms tied behind his back. We will not finish near the top 4 with the defence we have, more likely bottom half of table.
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The Dave



Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
Really? Other teams have invested in the areas they identified as weak, we didn’t and defensively we are mid-table at best, certainly not on a par with any other team with champions league aspirations. That speaks to the disconnect between owners, board and players. Jose will be gone by next season, we will have another manager operating with one or two arms tied behind his back. We will not finish near the top 4 with the defence we have, more likely bottom half of table.


Oh behave. You really listen to all that claptrap that comes out of Mourinho's gob don't you? We've invested (a lot) in a bunch of players - including defenders he's identified - in the last few years, and as much as we could still improve I reckon a decent manager would've made much more of this squad. Hopefully we'll finally make a decent appointment and see.
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Chubby



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Really? Other teams have invested in the areas they identified as weak, we didn’t and defensively we are mid-table at best, certainly not on a par with any other team with champions league aspirations. That speaks to the disconnect between owners, board and players. Jose will be gone by next season, we will have another manager operating with one or two arms tied behind his back. We will not finish near the top 4 with the defence we have, more likely bottom half of table.


Oh behave. You really listen to all that claptrap that comes out of Mourinho's gob don't you? We've invested (a lot) in a bunch of players - including defenders he's identified - in the last few years, and as much as we could still improve I reckon a decent manager would've made much more of this squad. Hopefully we'll finally make a decent appointment and see.


He has a point on being backed. He said 5 players, we got Fred, a 3rd choice keeper and a young Portuguese lad that’s one for the future. Does this sound like a huge improvement? Ed Woodward either needed to back him or sack him, he did neither. We’re now royally fucked as a result. You should really watch our defenders play, the amount of free headers we give away is beyond a joke, as is any notion that Smalling is United quality.
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Southern Red



Joined: 08 May 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chubby wrote:
The Dave wrote:
Chubby wrote:
Really? Other teams have invested in the areas they identified as weak, we didn’t and defensively we are mid-table at best, certainly not on a par with any other team with champions league aspirations. That speaks to the disconnect between owners, board and players. Jose will be gone by next season, we will have another manager operating with one or two arms tied behind his back. We will not finish near the top 4 with the defence we have, more likely bottom half of table.


Oh behave. You really listen to all that claptrap that comes out of Mourinho's gob don't you? We've invested (a lot) in a bunch of players - including defenders he's identified - in the last few years, and as much as we could still improve I reckon a decent manager would've made much more of this squad. Hopefully we'll finally make a decent appointment and see.


He has a point on being backed. He said 5 players, we got Fred, a 3rd choice keeper and a young Portuguese lad that’s one for the future. Does this sound like a huge improvement? Ed Woodward either needed to back him or sack him, he did neither. We’re now royally fucked as a result. You should really watch our defenders play, the amount of free headers we give away is beyond a joke, as is any notion that Smalling is United quality.


Is our defence any good? No.
Is it as bad as Jose wants us to believe? No
Would we be any better if we had got a defender or two? Debatable, but I'm not convinced.

Jose is so determined to get his new defender it seems he has given up trying to improve what he currently has.
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